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Old 10-25-2015, 11:27 AM
 
Location: California side of the Sierras
10,127 posts, read 5,981,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Do you know what delusional means? I'm delusional because I believe that someone who had a formal education in a time when it was actually rare to have a formal education was not home schooled??? If you want to see delusional look in the mirror. In spite of the fact that homeschooling involves mostly a demographic that is VERY successful in public or private school all homeschooling can lay claim to is being better than average. That same demographic does FANTASTIC in public or private school. So why don't they in homeschooling? Compare apples to apples and you'll see that homeschooling isn't delivering what a formal education can.

As a teacher I do much more than baby sit. If you look at just the demographic that traditionally homeschools, we're hitting home runs. However, as a teacher I know that that is largely due to demographics. We play our part in that we can offer more to our higher students because we know more but we couldn't deliver that high outcome without demographics on our side. Most of my energy will be spent on students who are struggling. The impact I have there varies as some teachers are better at dealing with kids with certain issues than others. I've come to accept that all kinds of teachers are needed because kids come with all kinds of issues and some connect better with struggling learners of various types (ie., lacking prerequisite knowledge, lazy, have given up, dealing with home lives that suck, etc, etc, etc...).

My issues with homeschooling stem from the fact that the demographic that homeschools does extremely well in public school but only performs better than average when homeschooled. This is in spite of the fact that we're comparing what is usually a top demographic to the entire spectrum in public schools. Fortunately, those are the kids who do well no matter where you plant them so I think they'll do fine in spite of the fact they most likely would have done better in public school. IMO they do have one advantage and that is the ability to self teach. That is something many of my students won't learn until they get to college but they'll learn it. For that top demographic, in the end, I don't think it matters how they were educated as kids. However, I do not think for one second we should be doing anything to promote homeschooling because it's clear that the success it has is only due to demographics. If we were to encourage other demographics to homeschool the results could be disastrous.
How is this comparison being measured?
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Old 10-25-2015, 11:36 AM
 
Location: California side of the Sierras
10,127 posts, read 5,981,391 times
Reputation: 11612
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I agree. As a homeschooler for years it would have been nice just to allow me to keep what I was paying to public school even though my three kids didn't use it. I was paying out of pocket for my supplies at the same time I was helping supply them for other kids.
We always thought of it as doing our part for others but the extra write off would have been useful.

As far as encouraging homeschooling, I do. I also see room for something in between. Virtual schools are expanding and helping parents. Kids can work from home or even at bases with computers. They usually spend a third less time and the costs are less. It's also still publicly funded, and has some clubs.

Homeschooling is great but it does take a dedicated parent or two willing to split it up. Plus, a point brought up earlier on, two income families would have a hard time with this option. Virtual options could help with the fact that a lot of public school is daycare with benefits. It's relatively safe option for your child if you both work all day, and a lot cheaper than hiring care. This is the largest hurdle we have in my opinion. It takes a two family income to make a living and public school provides a safe place for your child as well as the benefit of an education, even if it isn't a good as a home education.
Personally, I am not a fan of the virtual schools. To me, the real advantage of home schooling is the ability to pick and choose from every learning opportunity in existence. Learning virtually is one choice, but parked in front of a computer all day every day? That seems very limiting to me.

When we home schooled, I knew one family who used a particular curriculum which was video-taped. There was a teacher and a classroom of students on the video. The students on the video had the same books, etc. as the student at home watching the video. I thought that was the most bizarre thing I had ever heard. You give up all the freedom that comes with home schooling, and your kid is sitting there all alone. I'd take traditional school over that any day.

ETA: It wasn't one video tape. Every month a new box of video tapes was shipped, one to be played each school day. This curriculum could be purchased for any grade K - 12.

Last edited by Petunia 100; 10-25-2015 at 11:47 AM..
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Old 10-25-2015, 11:39 AM
 
Location: California side of the Sierras
10,127 posts, read 5,981,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cindersslipper View Post
Think back to your own childhood.

The most profound and memorable experiences you have with your peers almost definitely occurred when adults weren't about.

Home schooling denies children this sort of interaction, entirely. You simply cannot schedule or fake the experience of growing up with a village around you.
It is difficult to give your opinion any weight, since you keep repeating the same incorrect things while declining to state how you formed your opinion.

Home schooling does not deny children interaction with others. It simply requires a bit more effort than it does for children who attend a traditional school.
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Old 10-25-2015, 11:44 AM
 
Location: California side of the Sierras
10,127 posts, read 5,981,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherTouchOfWhimsy View Post
I don't have time this morning to research this thoroughly, but do you happen to have any links re: the bolded? If I remember correctly, everything I've read has said that homeschooled kid score in the 70th to 85th percentiles. I'd say that's quite a bit more than "slightly better than average." Remember also that homeschooled kids are generally not "taught to the test" for months beforehand... Unless you are talking about some other indicator of success?

Other than that, I agree with you that demographics are key. Involved, literate parents make a huge difference.

With that being said, however, I think you are misunderstanding why parents homeschool. It's not about control in my family; if anything, it's about allowing our kids the freedom to learn what they want in the way that works best for them and to follow their passions. I own a business; it's certainly not about trying to avoid working! And we are not religious homeschoolers, so controlling what they're exposed to does not apply, either. Most of the homeschoolers I know are very similar to myself. I think you are a bit sheltered if you think that the only homeschoolers that exist are like the ones in your church, to be honest.
I agree. It's not a competition with public school. It's just about a family choosing what works best for them.

And frankly, I am not at all sure why it should be surprising that the home schoolers one knows from one's church are religious. You're not likely to encounter non-religious home schoolers in your church.
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Old 10-25-2015, 12:56 PM
 
3,283 posts, read 5,674,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
It would probably shock people. I think more and more money goes to ESL and SPED each year as the number of students fitting into those categories rises.

I noticed it this year when one district (rather large one) had their job openings up..17 SPED paras and 2 academic paras.

The elementary school I tutored at last year has only SPED or ESL paras now.
And maybe this is the result of mainstreaming. Not being in a contained classroom anymore means that more are needed as the kids are spread out among different classrooms now.

I read an article about how one country deals with immigrant children that don't speak the language.
They go into a special class for one year that focuses on acquiring the language skills over learning the academics.
They said it works much better because when the student is integrated into the mainstream classroom they are able to participate right away.
The information would shock people and perhaps even lead for a call to significantly scale back or even eliminate SpEd and ELL.

I don't know if you've ever read educationrealist's blog, but in a post (linked below) he shows that that the majority of ELL students were actually born in the United States and that English is actually their first language. The issue is that the ELL identification tests don't really test for language ability, but cognitive ability. Yikes!

https://educationrealist.wordpress.c...rner-mandates/
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Old 10-25-2015, 01:00 PM
 
3,283 posts, read 5,674,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
No. Home schooling actually isn't that effective. It just appears that way because the demographic that homeschools is the same demographic that does well in publics school but when you compare them to public schools you include the ENTIRE demographic not just that one.
I'm just going to quote this so people can see it again and hopefully reality will set in for some.
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Old 10-25-2015, 01:08 PM
 
3,283 posts, read 5,674,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by believe007 View Post
And who knows- if Tebow had gone to public schools-
Would he have been as extraordinary- or just settled for mediocrity??
Maybe he would have had an actual NFL career lasting more than just a few games if he attended a public school? Joe Montana, John Elway, Terry Bradshaw, Ben Roethlisberger, Troy Aikman, and Bob Griese all won multiple Super Bowls and all attended public schools.
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Old 10-25-2015, 01:12 PM
 
3,283 posts, read 5,674,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I agree. As a homeschooler for years it would have been nice just to allow me to keep what I was paying to public school even though my three kids didn't use it. I was paying out of pocket for my supplies at the same time I was helping supply them for other kids.
We always thought of it as doing our part for others but the extra write off would have been useful.
I think this is a slippery slope. There are a lot of valuable public services funded in small part by my tax dollars go that I don't use. Should I get that money back to pay for my own choice to privately duplicate those services?
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Old 10-25-2015, 01:20 PM
 
Location: California side of the Sierras
10,127 posts, read 5,981,391 times
Reputation: 11612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17 View Post
I think this is a slippery slope. There are a lot of valuable public services funded in small part by my tax dollars go that I don't use. Should I get that money back to pay for my own choice to privately duplicate those services?
I agree. People with no kids pay for public school, too. Shouldn't they be able to get a tax credit? I've never been incarcerated. Shouldn't I be excused from paying for prisons? My house has never caught on fire, why should I have to pay for the fire department?

Taxes aren't about paying for a good or service for yourself, but rather for the community. That is why it is a tax and not a bill for services rendered.
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Old 10-25-2015, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,068 posts, read 76,631,796 times
Reputation: 27642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17 View Post
The information would shock people and perhaps even lead for a call to significantly scale back or even eliminate SpEd and ELL.

I don't know if you've ever read educationrealist's blog, but in a post (linked below) he shows that that the majority of ELL students were actually born in the United States and that English is actually their first language. The issue is that the ELL identification tests don't really test for language ability, but cognitive ability. Yikes!

https://educationrealist.wordpress.c...rner-mandates/
Within the small school districts where I've tutored, yes they are American born but many don't know any English because only Spanish is spoken at home because either the parents or grandparents don't speak English.

I've seen 2nd generation American Hispanics enter school no knowing any English.
This is mainly due to multi generations living in the same home. If the grandparents don't speak English then English is not spoken in the home at all.

I've worked with middle school students who only spoke English outside the home.
Inside the home was Spanish only.

I couldn't tell you though if these are recent arrivals to Texas from Mexico because we're not allowed to ask.
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