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I posted this in Special Needs but perhaps it's better served here. Ever since we have approached our son's elementary school to get a 504 plan in place, the tone from his teachers has switched from "your son is making bad choices" to "he's a sweetie" and "he really shouldn't really be labeled as a 'special needs' kid." I know it sounds cynical but since we've scheduled the initial meeting, everyone seems to be bending over backwards to assure us that it's not needed, that all the teachers there are well-equipped to deal with his "flare-ups" in his behavior. We admit that our son does seem to be on this strange edge of having Asperger's which DH calls "part-time ASD": he doesn't show all the typical characteristics of an ASD child but he does have a definite world order, tends to monologue, is socially immature in that he doesn't understand reciprocal conversations and tends to touch people too much (no sense of boundaries or taking social cues) and has no respect for authority (treats adults as his peers - he's been this way since he was 2 years old - he's almost 9 now).
The lack of respect is indeed a big issue with which we struggle, but he does try. Really, it's the way he says it rather than what he's actually saying. It sounds like an attack when that's not how he means it. Sometimes he literally can't help himself and teachers think that he's just being willful. At this school, his diagnosis records are locked down so from year to year, his new teacher has no idea what's going on with him for the 1st few weeks of school until we conference and let the teacher know of his diagnosis. Then they go "Ahhh I see" but we're tired of going through this. Each year, we want the teacher to be armed with this information from the get-go so that they don't go through weeks of not understanding his behavior. DS is so bright and verbal and seems so mature (and is tall which doesn't help matters) so when he blows up loudly about something, the teachers say the other kids "get scared" which we think is somewhat of an exaggeration sometimes but he does escalate if he feels he's been wronged somehow. He used to fall out on the floor in anger and frustration, but doesn't do that anymore. He had a dual diagnosis of ADHD/ASD early on (when he was 5) but he's gotten better on his own and we stopped needing medication which was great.
He has made gradual progress but we thought a 504 would be the best way to ensure we get teachers who know how to deal with ASD students. Every year, we're assured by the principal that their teachers are all equipped but this year, quite frankly, his math/science teacher is really giving him a hard time, and it's clear she doesn't like the fact that he simply doesn't comply. Despite knowing about his diagnosis, she refuses to give him countdowns to transitions, which is what we've recommended to help. She's going to be in this 504 meeting tomorrow so I can't be honest about my feelings about her... yet. I will be when it comes down to their choosing a teacher for him next year. The principal's default response is "you can't choose who you want for teachers," but if I have to send an email to the principal and VP to make sure, I will.
Has anyone out there REGRETTED doing a 504? Is an IEP better? Is there a certain way we should word it? We have ideas as to how to address certain issues and are willing to make it as manageable as possible for the teacher - we're not looking to alienate anyone - but we want to make sure that some accommodations are out there to help the teachers understand his behaviors and help mitigate them. I'm just not understanding the resistance (and the change of attitude since we brought this up).
I posted this in Special Needs but perhaps it's better served here. Ever since we have approached our son's elementary school to get a 504 plan in place, the tone from his teachers has switched from "your son is making bad choices" to "he's a sweetie" and "he really shouldn't really be labeled as a 'special needs' kid." I know it sounds cynical but since we've scheduled the initial meeting, everyone seems to be bending over backwards to assure us that it's not needed, that all the teachers there are well-equipped to deal with his "flare-ups" in his behavior. We admit that our son does seem to be on this strange edge of having Asperger's which DH calls "part-time ASD": he doesn't show all the typical characteristics of an ASD child but he does have a definite world order, tends to monologue, is socially immature in that he doesn't understand reciprocal conversations and tends to touch people too much (no sense of boundaries or taking social cues) and has no respect for authority (treats adults as his peers - he's been this way since he was 2 years old - he's almost 9 now).
The lack of respect is indeed a big issue with which we struggle, but he does try. Really, it's the way he says it rather than what he's actually saying. It sounds like an attack when that's not how he means it. Sometimes he literally can't help himself and teachers think that he's just being willful. At this school, his diagnosis records are locked down so from year to year, his new teacher has no idea what's going on with him for the 1st few weeks of school until we conference and let the teacher know of his diagnosis. Then they go "Ahhh I see" but we're tired of going through this. Each year, we want the teacher to be armed with this information from the get-go so that they don't go through weeks of not understanding his behavior. DS is so bright and verbal and seems so mature (and is tall which doesn't help matters) so when he blows up loudly about something, the teachers say the other kids "get scared" which we think is somewhat of an exaggeration sometimes but he does escalate if he feels he's been wronged somehow. He used to fall out on the floor in anger and frustration, but doesn't do that anymore. He had a dual diagnosis of ADHD/ASD early on (when he was 5) but he's gotten better on his own and we stopped needing medication which was great.
I doubt they are exaggerating.
Quote:
He has made gradual progress but we thought a 504 would be the best way to ensure we get teachers who know how to deal with ASD students. Every year, we're assured by the principal that their teachers are all equipped but this year, quite frankly, his math/science teacher is really giving him a hard time, and it's clear she doesn't like the fact that he simply doesn't comply. Despite knowing about his diagnosis, she refuses to give him countdowns to transitions, which is what we've recommended to help. She's going to be in this 504 meeting tomorrow so I can't be honest about my feelings about her... yet. I will be when it comes down to their choosing a teacher for him next year. The principal's default response is "you can't choose who you want for teachers," but if I have to send an email to the principal and VP to make sure, I will.
Of course she is frustrated, she has a student refusing to comply. Without that IEP she doesn't have to give him that accommodation.
Quote:
Has anyone out there REGRETTED doing a 504? Is an IEP better? Is there a certain way we should word it? We have ideas as to how to address certain issues and are willing to make it as manageable as possible for the teacher - we're not looking to alienate anyone - but we want to make sure that some accommodations are out there to help the teachers understand his behaviors and help mitigate them. I'm just not understanding the resistance (and the change of attitude since we brought this up).
Thanks for any insights!
You can't just say you want a 504 and get one. That aside, your child needs to be on an IEP. My guess is that this will only get worse as he ages unless he gets identification and intervention. I am baffled from what you've written that this hasn't been brought up to you already.
Please try to keep in mind when making "suggestions" or demands on teachers that they have 25-30 other children in that classroom, not just him. Things that are effective or feasible one-on-one are not always so in a group.
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Ok, OldHag, normally I take all of other posters' comments and responses in stride, good and bad, since I understand that you can't know ALL of what has gone on with my child, but by no means do I expect a teacher to frame her entire classroom around my child with 18 other kids to deal with. You don't know what he's been through or what we've been through with him since he was 2, so your quick assumption that his math/science teacher is this angel and my son seems to be the devil proves my point. There are teachers who love my child, and there are those who can't stand him. I get it - both my parents were teachers and when you don't like a child for whatever reason -- hyperactivity, too loud, too timid, a liar, etc., I've heard it all growing up, I don't expect a teacher to be able to hide that 100%. I do understand. But sometimes they DO exaggerate: saying that my child is creating an unsafe situation by raising his voice to the teacher is a bit much. He doesn't bite or hit other students: in fact the gifted coordinator this morning admitted that some young girls who are naturally timid *would* be afraid of my son raising his voice because they've never experienced yelling in their lives, but the general classroom as a whole doesn't feel unsafe. This just seems to be a buzzword to deal with a highly spirited know-it-all boy: yes, he can be annoying and disruptive to the flow of the teacher's lessons, but unsafe for the school community as a whole? No. That's not the word I'd use.
You didn't know that he touches his teachers too much because he needs tactile contact, that he can't stand bright lights, that he hates wearing clothes because the texture bothers him, that when he gets excited, he gapes and jumps up and down, and sometimes flaps his hands. Over time, these behaviors have lessened but the teacher goes "What's wrong with that kid" UNTIL they hear that he's been diagnosed with Aspergers. I don't EXPECT a 504. I EXPECT the teachers to hear me out about some gentle suggestions that would help him comply when something sets him off. And those triggers are hard to figure out sometimes. When the teachers write him off as a "weird" and/or "disrepectful" kid but suddenly call him the sweetest kid in the world when they hear 504, I'm wondering why the change of heart? That's all I asked. That's what my husband is asking. "We see his beautiful heart now." Well, why couldn't you see it before we starting talking 504?
If you don't have any insight on that, fine. But I don't appreciate the slam and the implication that I'm one of those entitled moms who's over at the school every other week complaining and making demands. In fact, my husband and I have been too silent about the treatment he sometimes gets over the years because we wanted to go with the flow and not make waves... but this year, because this science teacher (whom he's had in the past by the way) is the only one marking him with low grades vs. the other teachers and who seemed to be hostile during the parent-teacher conference, we have decided to get more involved and let people know what they're dealing with - that he's wired for certain behaviors and it's not all intentional.
North Beach Person, thanks for the clarification. When we approached the school about options, they suggested the 504 because his behavioral issues due to ASD seemed to be getting in the way of his academics this year, but if the IEP is the right way to go, then we're open to that.
As a teacher, at least in my district, I much prefer a student to be on an IEP rather than a 504 because at least that means I get some assistance from a specialist. 504s are more difficult because you get no extra help and some of the stipulations of the 504 often have odd/difficult requirements for compliance. Again the level of assistance received by teachers my vary by district, let alone state.
Ok, OldHag, normally I take all of other posters' comments and responses in stride, good and bad, since I understand that you can't know ALL of what has gone on with my child, but by no means do I expect a teacher to frame her entire classroom around my child with 18 other kids to deal with. You don't know what he's been through or what we've been through with him since he was 2, so your quick assumption that his math/science teacher is this angel and my son seems to be the devil proves my point. There are teachers who love my child, and there are those who can't stand him. I get it - both my parents were teachers and when you don't like a child for whatever reason -- hyperactivity, too loud, too timid, a liar, etc., I've heard it all growing up, I don't expect a teacher to be able to hide that 100%. I do understand. But sometimes they DO exaggerate: saying that my child is creating an unsafe situation by raising his voice to the teacher is a bit much. He doesn't bite or hit other students: in fact the gifted coordinator this morning admitted that some young girls who are naturally timid *would* be afraid of my son raising his voice because they've never experienced yelling in their lives, but the general classroom as a whole doesn't feel unsafe. This just seems to be a buzzword to deal with a highly spirited know-it-all boy: yes, he can be annoying and disruptive to the flow of the teacher's lessons, but unsafe for the school community as a whole? No. That's not the word I'd use.
You didn't know that he touches his teachers too much because he needs tactile contact, that he can't stand bright lights, that he hates wearing clothes because the texture bothers him, that when he gets excited, he gapes and jumps up and down, and sometimes flaps his hands. Over time, these behaviors have lessened but the teacher goes "What's wrong with that kid" UNTIL they hear that he's been diagnosed with Aspergers. I don't EXPECT a 504. I EXPECT the teachers to hear me out about some gentle suggestions that would help him comply when something sets him off. And those triggers are hard to figure out sometimes. When the teachers write him off as a "weird" and/or "disrepectful" kid but suddenly call him the sweetest kid in the world when they hear 504, I'm wondering why the change of heart? That's all I asked. That's what my husband is asking. "We see his beautiful heart now." Well, why couldn't you see it before we starting talking 504?
If you don't have any insight on that, fine. But I don't appreciate the slam and the implication that I'm one of those entitled moms who's over at the school every other week complaining and making demands. In fact, my husband and I have been too silent about the treatment he sometimes gets over the years because we wanted to go with the flow and not make waves... but this year, because this science teacher (whom he's had in the past by the way) is the only one marking him with low grades vs. the other teachers and who seemed to be hostile during the parent-teacher conference, we have decided to get more involved and let people know what they're dealing with - that he's wired for certain behaviors and it's not all intentional.
North Beach Person, thanks for the clarification. When we approached the school about options, they suggested the 504 because his behavioral issues due to ASD seemed to be getting in the way of his academics this year, but if the IEP is the right way to go, then we're open to that.
You were not slammed. You were responded to. Of course I don't know your child, only what you have told us. Based on what you have added, I stand by my assertion that he NEEDS an IEP. That will give him services and accommodations that are currently optional. I have reread my response to you and I have no idea why it got you so up in arms.
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These are the comments I took umbrage with. Perhaps they "read" harsher than intended:
1. I doubt they are exaggerating. (based on what?)
2. You can't just say you want a 504 and get one. (never said I would)
3. Please try to keep in mind when making "suggestions" or demands on teachers that they have 25-30 other children in that classroom, not just him. (Why would I think this? My parents were lifelong teachers. I am very aware of this, but I'm also aware that spending most of his day with a teacher who's not supportive has a profound effect on his confidence and performance. My mother was a fantastic teacher who studied the learning styles of her students and realized that one size of teaching does not fit all even with 20 children in a class. She made her best effort to be mindful of this and she wasn't compelled to do this by a 504. She did it all on her own because she realized it would work best for her and the children.)
I'll leave it at that but thanks again for the IEP recommendation/clarification.
These are the comments I took umbrage with. Perhaps they "read" harsher than intended:
1. I doubt they are exaggerating. (based on what?)
2. You can't just say you want a 504 and get one. (never said I would)
3. Please try to keep in mind when making "suggestions" or demands on teachers that they have 25-30 other children in that classroom, not just him. (Why would I think this? My parents were lifelong teachers. I am very aware of this, but I'm also aware that spending most of his day with a teacher who's not supportive has a profound effect on his confidence and performance. My mother was a fantastic teacher who studied the learning styles of her students and realized that one size of teaching does not fit all even with 20 children in a class. She made her best effort to be mindful of this and she wasn't compelled to do this by a 504. She did it all on her own because she realized it would work best for her and the children.)
I'll leave it at that but thanks again for the IEP recommendation/clarification.
1. Based on experience with lots of kids. Some children do become terrorized by stuff other people think should be no big deal. Often when parents think their child's actions have no impact on other students they are forgetting that other kids have quirks too. I doubt the teacher is exaggerating, she may have even had one or more of those girls parents call to complain.
2. A lot of parents don't realize there is a process to go through. Glad you do but I want parents to be forwarned that hoops are coming their way.
3. It is not unusual for parents to be so focused on their child that they forget there are other children in the room and what may work at home will not at school either because that action takes too much of the teacher's time and attention or it may create a behavior management issue with the other children. If you realize that, great. It is very frustrating for teachers when a parent says "Well, at home....." Because the teacher isn't dealing with the child at home, they are dealing with them at school. If you understand that, great.
Your child really does need to be on an IEP if for no other reason than it will force teachers to try and accommodate his needs and it will shelter him from being punished for behaviors beyond his control. Not all teachers are as flexible as describe your mother. Schools make more of an effort to place kids on IEPs in classes where a teacher's teaching style can accommodate the child's needs.
__________________
When I post in bold red that is moderator action and, per the TOS, can only be discussed through Direct Message.
Generally a 504 is typically for medical issues (diabetes, severe allergies, etc.) while an IEP is for various learning disabilities.
Your son should be on an IEP, not a 504.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17
As a teacher, at least in my district, I much prefer a student to be on an IEP rather than a 504 because at least that means I get some assistance from a specialist. 504s are more difficult because you get no extra help and some of the stipulations of the 504 often have odd/difficult requirements for compliance. Again the level of assistance received by teachers my vary by district, let alone state.
I agree with both posters.
In my district he would never be considered for a 504 plan. The only time that they are used are with children who have a serious medical issue and do not have a special education diagnosis. They are not used for educational, behavioral or learning issues. However, your district or state may be different.
I am amazed that the teachers do not have access to the files of their new students. How in the world are they able to plan for their specific levels and needs in the first days and weeks of school?
Get an IEP. He will then have the support of a special education teacher to assist in his educational progress and to help him learn appropriate social skills and classroom behavior.
1. Based on experience with lots of kids. Some children do become terrorized by stuff other people think should be no big deal. Often when parents think their child's actions have no impact on other students they are forgetting that other kids have quirks too. I doubt the teacher is exaggerating, she may have even had one or more of those girls parents call to complain.
2. A lot of parents don't realize there is a process to go through. Glad you do but I want parents to be forwarned that hoops are coming their way.
3. It is not unusual for parents to be so focused on their child that they forget there are other children in the room and what may work at home will not at school either because that action takes too much of the teacher's time and attention or it may create a behavior management issue with the other children. If you realize that, great. It is very frustrating for teachers when a parent says "Well, at home....." Because the teacher isn't dealing with the child at home, they are dealing with them at school. If you understand that, great.
Your child really does need to be on an IEP if for no other reason than it will force teachers to try and accommodate his needs and it will shelter him from being punished for behaviors beyond his control. Not all teachers are as flexible as describe your mother. Schools make more of an effort to place kids on IEPs in classes where a teacher's teaching style can accommodate the child's needs.
As a special education teacher, with 30 plus years of experience, I totally agree with Oldhags comments.
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