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Old 12-30-2015, 02:30 PM
 
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Lately on the education board there has been a lot of talk about Finland, and how their education system is so great, and about how we (the US) should try and emulate them. I didn't know much about the education system in Finland, except for the fact that everyone said they started official schooling at age 7, so I decided to find out more about it. I was sure there had to be more to it than that. Here's what I learned.

Finland was not always an international leader in education, they had to go through some tough reforms. First, in the 1970s, they basically instituted their own version of No Child Left Behind and Common Core. Finnish teachers had to keep diaries recording what they taught each hour. National school inspectors made regular visits to make sure teachers were following a detailed seven-hundred-page centralized curriculum. Central authorities approved textbooks.

Then, the Finnish government rebooted their teacher-training colleges, forcing them to become MUCH more selective and rigorous. They closed all of the smaller teacher-training colleges, and moved all teacher-training to the most highly respected universities. They decided that the only way to get serious about education was to select highly educated teachers, the best and brightest of each generation, and train them rigorously.

Now days, in order to become a regular "K-12 type teacher" in Finland, you have to complete your training at one of only eight prestigious teacher-training universities. These universities are as selective as MIT and Ivy Leagues are in the states, and just as rigorous. Getting into a teacher training program in Finland is as difficult as getting into a highly selective medical school in the US. A Finnish teacher receives the highest level of education in the country. All Finnish teachers are required to get a masters degree, and complete a difficult 1 year teaching residency, very similar to a surgical residency in the states. They also have to do original research and present a thesis. This is for a regular, run of the mill grade school teacher. (The government does pay for this schooling, though, so that grade school teachers don't graduate with huge student loans).

In the 1980s and 1990s, when the highly educated and trained teachers became the norm in the schools, the government started dismantling the No Child Left Behind and Common Core scaffolding, piece by piece, and gave the now extraordinary teachers more autonomy to teach as they saw fit. The kids all still had to pass the same standardized test at the end of highschool, but the teachers could decide for themselves how best to get the kids to that point.

In Finland, teachers are treated as professionals, and are also paid like professionals. Also, there are very few private schools and no charter schools, just public schools that are centrally funded according to need. Also of note, the few private schools (mostly religious) that do exist are not allowed to charge tuition or use selective admission. They function and are funded like a public school.

Finland has a pervasive culture that education is serious. Students highly respect their teachers, in part because they know their teachers' numerous educational accomplishments. Also, the general theme amongst all students is that working hard in school is the only way to go to university and get a good job, and have a good life. It is serious. Tests are harder, most tests are essay tests, requiring long responses. They don't really "do" multiple choice there. Expectations and consequences are higher. Teachers expect everyone to do all their homework, and if they don't, they fail. There is not as much homework assigned, but all of it gets done. Finnish kids have more free time than American kids, because they are less likely to play sports or hold down part time jobs. They have more time for things like music and art. They don't have sports at school, they have music lessons. High school football doesn't exist. Math teachers are professional math teachers instead of football coaches who try to teach math.

Until age 16, Finnish teachers are not allowed to promote children to the next grade who are not ready. They have a strict ethic of "equity". But their special education works differently than ours - as soon as any kid starts having difficulties, they immediately start getting special education for as long as they need, funded by the government, to help them catch back up. It's temporary, does not require a label, and has no stigma. Over half of all kids receive special education services at some point in time. This special education is so pervasive, and effective, that kids are rarely retained a grade. How do the schools have enough money to do this you ask? Well, in Finland they don't spend money on technology in the classroom. They have chalkboards, paper, pencils, and books. There are no fancy electronic whiteboards and iPads and laptops in every classroom, no giant auditoriums and gymnasiums on state of the art campuses. They spend their money on teachers. Really, really, good teachers.

There is absolutely no tracking (gifted, honors classes, etc) until age 16. After 16, kids are allowed to choose to go to vocational high school or continue in academic high school. But, the vocational schools are also pretegious, because the government dumps money in them. The more remote or disadvantaged a school, the more money it gets from the government. It does not depend on the property values of the surrounding community, like it does in the States. In Finland, the schools with the poorest students have MORE teachers per student, not less.

At the end of highschool, every (non-vocational) student takes a standardized test (matriculation exam) that largely determines where they go to college. It's like the SAT, only it weighs much more in college admissions than the SAT does. It lasts 3 weeks and about 50 hours, and is NOT multiple choice. It is very hard, not like standardized tests in the US, which are fairly easy. College admissions are based purely on high school GPA and exam grades. No essays, no weight on extracurriculars or "well-roundedness", no minority quotas, no "human factor in selection" at all. Admissions are completely objective. In Finland, school is hard, and tests affect students' lives. It is a meritocracy.

The teachers in Finland are trained to NOT take into account the race, socioeconomic status, or background of their students. In the bigger cities where they have high diversity and high rates of foreign students (mostly non-native speaking refugees), they actually have the highest scores, because the teachers force themselves to be ignorant of their students' homelives and background, and instead treat them all the same and have the same expectations of all of them. What matters is their brains and how hard they work, period. There is no such thing as passing a disadvantaged kid because they had it harder, and the kids know it, and they live up to expectations. Finland expects more out of kids, and the kids deliver.

Also, Finnish kids are all good at math, because they are all expected to be good at math. There is no thought that "some people are good at math and some people are not". The thought is "everyone can be good at math, as long as they work hard, and have a good teacher. If you aren't good at it, then work harder. It has nothing to do with what you are born with, and only to do with how hard you study." The universal attitude towards school in Finland that it should be RIGOROUS.

Now let me go back to the one thing I knew about Finnish education before doing research, and the one thing people like to point out all the time on these forums - formal schooling starts at 7. Come to find out, it's just "compulsory" schooling starts at age 7, but the government provides free universal daycare, preschool, and kindergarten from age 8 months and up, which is used by almost everyone. Public school starts much earlier than 7, and the assertion that kids don't *have* to go to school until 7 is just semantics. Sure they don't HAVE to go, but by and large they DO go.

So there you go guys, there is our ideal to aspire to. A lot of what the Fins do is logical, and it makes sense that their education system is as good as it is. So, what do you think? Should the US undergo the same reforms that Finland did? Did Obama make a huge mistake recently when he took away the Common Core mandate? Is it politically possible in this country to require all teachers to have completed such a rigourous training program, and basically have a masters degree from Harvard or MIT in order to teach 4th grade in a public school? Can we figure out how to reallocate our funding so it goes to where it's supposed to, like actual teaching, and universal high quality daycare and preschool? And, most importantly, can we reverse this culture of helicoptering and coddling our kids, and once again insist on rigor in the classroom?

What do you think?



(Much of the information here was gathered from the book The Smartest Kids in the World, and How They Got That Way by Amanda Ripley)

Last edited by pkbab5; 12-30-2015 at 03:54 PM..
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Texas
38,859 posts, read 25,405,195 times
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Yessir...

The Finns value their schools and treat their teachers like professionals, allowing them to actually teach the kids, instead of treating them as data points in aggregated test results.

America's educational establishment could learn a lot from Finland. But I wonder if the political climate in the USA would allow it. I'm inclined to think not.
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:57 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,027 posts, read 60,030,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
Yessir...

The Finns value their schools and treat their teachers like professionals, allowing them to actually teach the kids, instead of treating them as data points in aggregated test results.

America's educational establishment could learn a lot from Finland. But I wonder if the political climate in the USA would allow it. I'm inclined to think not.

Political will? Maybe, maybe not.


I'll let others start talking about the comparison of the Finnish population/demographics to that of the US.




OP, charter schools don't get "the best" teachers, instead they're typically staffed with new graduates and those without certification.
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:08 PM
 
1,955 posts, read 1,747,075 times
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Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
I'll let others start talking about the comparison of the Finnish population/demographics to that of the US.
This argument doesn't actually hold water when you look at the facts though. Yes, in the rural areas, the schools have largely homogeneous demographics. However, in the cities, like Helsinki, their demographics, when it comes to things like low socioeconomic status and high percentage of immigrant children who don't speak the native language, are just as diverse as in the US. And those schools actually score HIGHER on standardized tests than the rest of the country. The demographics are NOT dictating the educational results. The US uses it as an excuse, we are short changing our kids and doing them a disservice when we excuse their poor performance because of their demographic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
OP, charter schools don't get "the best" teachers, instead they're typically staffed with new graduates and those without certification.
Ok, I'll give you that one, you are correct. Let me see if I can change my OP.
...Done.
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Inland Northwest
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Fill their country with Finns, lots of people who look like me?


Seems kind of...well I don't notice anything really.
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:29 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,027 posts, read 60,030,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkbab5 View Post
This argument doesn't actually hold water when you look at the facts though. Yes, in the rural areas, the schools have largely homogeneous demographics. However, in the cities, like Helsinki, their demographics, when it comes to things like low socioeconomic status and high percentage of immigrant children who don't speak the native language, are just as diverse as in the US. And those schools actually score HIGHER on standardized tests than the rest of the country. The demographics are NOT dictating the educational results. The US uses it as an excuse, we are short changing our kids and doing them a disservice when we excuse their poor performance because of their demographic.




Ok, I'll give you that one, you are correct. Let me see if I can change my OP.
...Done.


Does Finland have an ingrained, multi-generational cohort of non-graduates producing absent father children at 15, where the vast majority of men of working age are incarcerated?
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:42 PM
 
1,955 posts, read 1,747,075 times
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Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Does Finland have an ingrained, multi-generational cohort of non-graduates producing absent father children at 15, where the vast majority of men of working age are incarcerated?
It is true that Finland has less generational poverty than the US, but I'd wager a guess that it's BECAUSE of how they treat education.

All daycare, preschool, and kindergarten is free to everyone, and high quality. Day care teachers have to have bachelor degrees, and the poorest ghetto kid gets free access to that high quality teacher, all day every school day, from 8 months of age on up. Everyone gets free school lunch. Almost every kid, even the poor ones, arrive to "compulsory school" at age 7 with solid reading and math skills already developed, because of the high quality of free universal daycare and preschool. 97% percent of ALL kids over age 3 go to these high quality public preschools. Mothers who choose to "homeschool" their children under age 3 receive a stipend from the government and visits from caseworkers to their homes to ensure appropriate environments.

That right there my friend is how you overcome generational poverty and break the cycle. Can't think of a better way.
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:54 PM
 
12,646 posts, read 8,868,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkbab5 View Post
So there you go guys, there is our ideal to aspire to. A lot of what the Fins do is logical, and it makes sense that their education system is as good as it is. So, what do you think? Should the US undergo the same reforms that Finland did? Did Obama make a huge mistake recently when he took away the Common Core mandate? Is it politically possible in this country to require all teachers to have completed such a rigourous training program, and basically have a masters degree from Harvard or MIT in order to teach 4th grade in a public school? Can we figure out how to reallocate our funding so it goes to where it's supposed to, like actual teaching, and universal high quality daycare and preschool? And, most importantly, can we reverse this culture of helicoptering and coddling our kids, and once again insist on rigor in the classroom?

What do you think?
Well, first some other data:

Population:
Finland - 5.4 million
US - 322.5 million
Area (km2):
Finland-318,815
US-9,147,593
Density:
Finland - 17
US - 35
School Funding % GDP:
Finland - 6.5.
US - 5.2
Finland is also better than 90% monoculture and same language. As we can see funding is different, but not extremely so; let's talk to your key questions.

A. Common Core Mandate: The problem is Common Core is not standards; it'scontent. Solid factual content would be easier to defend but too manypeople in too many states disagree with the content.

B. Is it politically possible in this country to require all teachers to have completed such a rigorous trainingprogram, and basically have a masters degree from Harvard or MIT in order toteach 4th grade in a public school? : No. The size of the country and population of student which drives the number of teachers required would pretty much prevent getting that many people who are capable of thatlevel work to go into teaching (and yes, I know it's not really Harvard, but educating people to that level). While I would love to see it, I don’t think it’s realistic. However, that doesn’t mean there aren’t otherrequirements that could be put in place both for education and performance. You mentioned several in your post. The problem will be gettingthe unions to go along with it.

The other big problem, which would be the biggest carrot to give the unions would be to make pay similar to what other degreed professionals, with the level of education you suggested, earn. But there is such a huge hatred of paying teachers anything in this country, I’m not sure you could get that passed.

C. The problem is neither funding, nor daycare, nor preschool. Those things are really red herrings from the fundamental issues, which we don’t have the political will to address.

D. “The culture of helicoptering and coddling …”: This Too is a red herring. It makes for great copy and great arguments onvarious editorial pages (and forums) to bash the current generation, but it just isn’t true for most of the population.

It really all comes down to two things, which I don’t think we as a country areready to discuss. The first is teacherpay vs teacher quality/performance. We need to expect more from our teachers and pay them accordingly. The other, real issue, is the current multi-culturism. Due to the desire to avoid tough issues, we have gone from being focused on equal opportunity for all, where what you get depends on what you put in (the individual is responsible) to being focused on equal outcomes, regardless of what you put in. Could we implement a model where if you fail, you fail? Not in our current society where there are an army of people looking for every excuse, whether race, language, SEO, whatever;anything but the individual. Until we can seriously get past the race & language (which is really a synonym forrace) barrier, we cannot begin to implement something like the Finnish model.

And I fully expect to get flamed for mentioning both of these undiscussables.

Last edited by Oldhag1; 12-31-2015 at 10:49 AM.. Reason: Fixed formatting
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Old 12-30-2015, 04:07 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,027 posts, read 60,030,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkbab5 View Post
It is true that Finland has less generational poverty than the US, but I'd wager a guess that it's BECAUSE of how they treat education.

All daycare, preschool, and kindergarten is free to everyone, and high quality. Day care teachers have to have bachelor degrees, and the poorest ghetto kid gets free access to that high quality teacher, all day every school day, from 8 months of age on up. Everyone gets free school lunch. Almost every kid, even the poor ones, arrive to "compulsory school" at age 7 with solid reading and math skills already developed, because of the high quality of free universal daycare and preschool. 97% percent of ALL kids over age 3 go to these high quality public preschools. Mothers who choose to "homeschool" their children under age 3 receive a stipend from the government and visits from caseworkers to their homes to ensure appropriate environments.

That right there my friend is how you overcome generational poverty and break the cycle. Can't think of a better way.

A question, although I probably already know the answer. Have you spent any time teaching or was your time in school spent as a student?


We already have free day care, free Pre-K, free pre-school, free meals (in some school systems they're year round) and have for 50 years. Not to mention Title I funding for intervention in high poverty schools as well as funding from NGOs. Of course, taking that second piece means that Bill Gates is setting educational policy.


Schools are a reflection of their community.
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Old 12-30-2015, 05:02 PM
 
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Having worked in the Michigan public school system for over 10 years, the realized the problem here also lies with the parents. The moral value and decay of the parents has degenerated to "animal," therefore American teachers main focus is discipline problems. These children lack any type of discipline or self control. They also lack respect and proper values. Parents start with daycare to high school are uninvolved in the children's lives until they get in trouble. They work all day jobs and come home and put their children to sleep. Parenthood is not valued and looked upon like a burden and a chain, being tied down. This individualistic society has consumed us. We have degenerated like the Romans and I fear, there is no turning around.
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