Guns in schools considered (community college, highest, program, children)

[UNITE]

Originally Posted by Greatday

A gun free zone is where it is posted that "no guns / weapons" are allowed. Some shopping malls are designated "gun free zones".

HI Greatday. I am still not getting the jist of that question. What would you say to this? I don't understand why Haaziq is asking me this question. I do appreciate your definition. I do understand that part of it now. I am sure there has been a mass murder somewhere, where they are not allowed guns.

Thanks again.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by UNITE

I am sure there has been a mass murder somewhere, where they are not allowed guns.

Thanks again.

Yep - last week - a college campus -

A few months ago - a shopping mall

[UNITE]

Originally Posted by Greatday

Yep - last week - a college campus -

A few months ago - a shopping mall

Thank you Greatday.

There you go Haaqiz. Does that answer your question? I did not know the answer so I asked someone else. Greatday just confirmed the info. I hope that helps you to understand better now. You have a good day.

[RickieInPhx]

Originally Posted by UNITE

I never said let all the sickos have them. Yes, I do believe in the constitution to bear arms. However, I do believe that our college campuses do not need to be loaded for bear, by the students. What is so bad about having a more safe environment with a few more security guards?

In this case we are assuming that having security guards is a real deterrent. We must consider the number of security guards, their training, and their placement.

Originally Posted by UNITE

We all have a choice. We can either give up a luxury (where money is spent for it) or we can carry on the way it is now, and make guns the answer. I disagree with the latter.

We do have a choice. We can make a change and allow responsible citizens to be able to defend themselves and others. Or we can do what we've always done, not allow it, we've seen how well that works on several occasions now.

Originally Posted by UNITE

It is my understanding that in some states you can not get a gun permit until you are 21. Ok, so what about the majority of college students due to the fact they are not old enough yet? What about their safety?!?

Well they would benefit from the safety provided by others who have been trained and happen to be armed.

Originally Posted by UNITE

I think the AMERICAN people better get off their duffs and start paying for this extra safety for all. So maybe we should forego going to the Bears football game so that our people can study without the fear of being there. Meaning put the money towards extra guards and equipment if needed.

In this instance you have a situation where criminals affect us directly through criminal action. Then they affect us indirectly through being forced to give up our "fun time" to pay for their misdeeds. That doesn’t sound like a good solution to me.

Originally Posted by UNITE

As far as on the streets or home, that is up to each individual.

So let me run this by you. Jim Smith is a responsible gun owner who has all the required training. At home he is armed and safe and that’s ok. He leaves home armed as well and drives around town, stops to pay a bill, buys food for dinner for the family and all that is ok. However, the second Jim sets a toe onto the college property that is NOT ok? Does he then become unsafe?

Originally Posted by UNITE

Please can't we rethink the college full of guns thing? I would not want my son to have to shoot someone.

Well it's not a college "full" of guns. It's the people with concealed carry permits we're talking about. I'm sure your son wouldn’t want to shoot anyone either, I know I hope I never have to! In fact, I don't know any gun owner who ever wants to shoot anyone.

Originally Posted by UNITE

No, not even to save another. That is something a person has to live with for the rest of their lives.

What if it was to save his own life? Would you be ok with it then?

Originally Posted by UNITE

I wonder what the troops in Iraq would say to this question. Hope I haven't offended anyone. God Bless the fallen.

I wonder what the troops think as well. Maybe if we have any who are reading this they can give us their $.02.

I don’t think you have offended anyone, certainly not myself. Being able to express our thoughts and receive input from others and talk about it all is a great thing.

Originally Posted by UNITE

I guess my question to your first answer would be, How do you know who is carrying or not? It is too easy to get one from the street thugs. Just because a person holds a gun card, doesn't mean the guy standing next to him isn't armed illegally. So yes, there are random people carrying guns all over the world illegally.

When you originally said random I got the mental image of them handing out guns out of a box or something to just random people. So I misunderstood what you meant there. What I was trying to get across though is that if this law goes into effect then it's only concealed carry holders who will be allowed to then carry legally, not just any yahoo. If it's concealed you'll never know who is carrying. You're right that someone standing next to you, or sitting next to you in class could be carrying illegaly. That would of course be a criminal action and you can't stop criminals just by making laws. Thats where allowing those who are legally licensed and trained to carry a weapon comes into play. This allows those who are trained to be present if, god forbid, anyone does start shooting.

Originally Posted by UNITE

MY answer to your second statement. Just because there is a law in place for this, does not mean that everyone is law ibiding citizens. There is a reason this thread got started, random shooting sprees.

Well not everyone is a law abiding citizen but this law in particular is in regard to law abiding concealed carry permit holders(CCW). These folks have proven that they have a history of being law abiding, or they would never pass the Federal FBI background checks that are required.

This thread in particular was actually started in reference to a proposed law in Arizona that would allow CCW holders to carry their arms onto a college campus. These are the same lawful folks who carry firearms from day to day out in public, to the grovery store, the gas station, etc...You are among them now.

Originally Posted by UNITE

I don't know of any of the shooters being old. All the shooters are very young. It is not the responsible people who are doing the damage. It is our drugged up (by doctors or streets) kids who are losing it, in the schools.

Well I'll hope you will forgive a small bit of laziness on my part. At this late hour I honestly don't feel like researching all of the school shootings in recent years. I do know that the Columbine shooters were 17 & 18, the Va Tech shooter was 23 years old, Charles Whitman was 25, Kipland Kinkel was 15, Patrick Purdy was 26, Charles Carl Roberts was 32, and the NIU shooter Steven Kazmierczak was 27. This isn't a full compendium of maniacs but just a snap shot of maniac, thug, scumbag shooters. In all actuality the age of the shooter is irrelevant since criminals come in all shapes, ages, and sizes. You are correct in that it is not the responsible people who are doing the damage. However it is the responsible people that you seem to be against being able to defend themselves and others.

Originally Posted by UNITE

Are you kidding me? Kids steal guns everyday from everywhere. I never said they attack the gun holders. Gee.

No, I am not kidding you. Where is the data that shows that kids steal guns everyday from everywhere? Unless I have somehow misinterpreted what you said..."Then you got the 18 year olds trying to steal these guns from the carriers." So is "attack(ing) the gun holders" and "steal(ing) these guns from the carriers" different? If so, how?

Originally Posted by UNITE

Accidents happen all the time. Guns do go off when fallen to the floor. Maybe not every time but most generally they do.

I don't know if "all the time" is an acurate portrael. There are approx 200 Million firearms in the country, if "accidents happened "all the time" there would be nothing but stories on TV reporting accidental discharges(or"guns going off"). As far as guns going off when they fall to the floor/ground...that very much depends on the firearm as well as the way it falls. It is actually less frequent to have a dropped firearm go off than it is to have one actually go off. First the hammer on the firearm must be external, it also must be in a state where the hammer is in direct contact with the firing pin,thirdly it must fall directly on that hammer.

Originally Posted by UNITE

I am 44 years old and yes I have shot a gun. My honey owns guns and is an avid gun believer. He can build one from scratch. He was also an avid hunter since the day he was 5. I do know some about guns. I still don't like them. I don't mean for it to sound as harsh as that but I don't know how else to say it.My honey also believes in bearing arms no matter where you are at. I understand that too, but I can't see college kids achieving everything they can from college if they have to worry about who they may have to shoot today because the administration has not put in place a safe environment.

Well atleast you have actually fired weapons yourself. I can fully and thouroghly understand that someone who has atleast tried it might not like it and that is fine. I would never try to force someone to try and protect themselves if they felt uncomfortable with it. I only have a problem with someone who says "its bad" and has never tried it themselves. I do have a question about you and your "honey", don't tell him I called him "honey". If you and your honey go out to dinner and he is "packing" do you feel more or less safe? What if your "honey" decided to take a class on...well whatever...next semester? If concealed carry was "ok" on campus what would you feel ok about your honey carrying or not?

Originally Posted by UNITE

Definately arm the guards. Yes.

Thats good then, atleast armed guards can do something about an armed attack. I guess my question would be how many guards and to what level are these guards trained then? If there are only a handful of guards and an attack happens on the opposite end of campus, then what? As an example the police officers in the NIU shooting were there in minutes. So would these guards be in every class like potential CCW carriers might be?

Originally Posted by UNITE

I guess I don't think of a shooter as my maker just because he shoots me dead. I just believe that a person will go when it is their time, no matter how they go. I really can't tell you how I would react to burglars. Never had one, Thank God. I have been raped several times by different rapers and have always came out alive. I think if I would have handled them differently then I would not be here today.

I can't truely express how badly I fell about you being raped, not just once but multiple times. That is horrible in a multitude of ways! It is a good thing that you were not killed, but of course that does not always happen. My question would be...if you could have easily reached out and taken hold of a firearm and ended that horrible experience...would you? I know that I can never place myself in the situataion that you were placed in so I don't mean to try and bring up something that you may have "done away with" but not knowing any better forces me to ask the question.

Originally Posted by middle-aged mom

Yes there are woman who have used guns to kill. There are 6 year olds, too. And some of these killings occur in states that enable CCW.

That is correct but, 6 year olds are not CCW holders, and women who might be CCW holders and commit murders aren't exactly in the "good guy(gal) column".

Having said all that, I am too smart to get into a "man/woman" argument. My momma taught me better than that. I'll let you and 'HAAZIQ' deal with that

[Hungry For Cheese]

WOW, Unite sounds like a scared lil sheep. No offense, but I kinda feel sorry for your "hubby" if you nag him about his guns...as I picture it in my head.
This world is not some sort or fantasy where everything can be all dandy by making a few laws.

Honestly...it seems like you want to join "our side"...you see what we see and want to agree. But it is the crap from the media and politicians that clutters your brain and I can see that by the questions/answers you give.

Your stats and ideas are all over the place. The troops have nothing to do with any of this. I'd be willing to bet they'd divide just about the same as regular civilians. Them being "troops" doesn't make them an authority to this issue. Some don't know anymore about guns than the rest of us.

As far as not wanting your son to shoot someone. Would you rather he die? Shot in the head? Or since you are so big on extra security, would you hire bodyguards to be with him at all times. Giving him some sort of invincibility complex where he thinks he is untouchable and is then out of touch with reality like his mom? ...harsh, I know.

[Haaziq]

Originally Posted by UNITE

I'm sorry Haaziq, I do not understand the question. What is a gun-free zone? Does that mean the people with the guns or without?

This is not a what if thing. It is very real and serious. It is administrations responsibility to make sure his environment is safe for all these people paying big money to be there. NOT EVERYONE can carry them, mostly due to age, and the majority of college students are under the age of 21. So what about them?

Gun-free zones are areas where guns are not allowed. They're prohibited in those areas. Every college shooting has happened in a gun-free zone. Nobody is stupid enough to attempt to shoot up an area with a bunch of armed students. For the record, in most places, 18 year olds can have guns. They just can't buy them until they're 21. In addition, many states allow open carry (carrying on a holster where everybody can see the gun) for ages 18 and up but concealed carry is ususally limited to 21+. A lot of people don't know the rights they actually have because they don't read their state's laws. That's why many get confused when they see somebody carrying a gun in full view without any kind of permit. They are only required for concealed carry in most places, but people don't know that.

[bigthirsty]

Originally Posted by Haaziq

Name one mass-murder that hasn't happened in a gun-free zone.

Ok. If we define Mass Murder as: involving the murder or four or more people at one event then..



Carnation, Washington. December 24, 2007. A woman and her boyfriend, using large-caliber pistols, shot and killed six of her members of her family, including her parents, her brother and wife, and their two children, ages 3 and 6. The shootings took place in and around the parents’ house on Christmas Eve.

Detroit, Michigan. September 17, 2007. Five people were shot, four fatally, in a house.

Atlanta, Georgia. July 23, 2007. A man neighbors described as a retired factory worker shot three people to death and wounded two others before killing himself in a southwest Atlanta home

Moscow, Idaho. May 22, 2007. A 36 year-old janitor who belonged to the Aryan Nations shot 200 rounds from two military-style semiautomatic weapons, killing his wife, a police officer and a church sexton, and wounding two other police officers and a college student, before killing himself. The shooter had been granted a concealed weapons permit, despite a domestic violence conviction and extensive criminal record.

Seattle, Washington. March 25, 2006. Kyle Huff walked into a party and killed six people in the Capitol Hill neighborhood before killing himself. A12-gauge
Winchester pump shotgun with a pistol-grip and a .40-caliber semiautomatic Ruger handgun were used in the shootings.

Birchwood, Wisconsin. November 21, 2004. A hunter opens fire with an SKS
assault rifle, killing six other hunters and wounding two after a confrontation over a tree stand.

What do I win as all of these events didn't happen in gun free zones.

[UNITE]

Originally Posted by RickieInPhx

In this case we are assuming that having security guards is a real deterrent. We must consider the number of security guards, their training, and their placement.



We do have a choice. We can make a change and allow responsible citizens to be able to defend themselves and others. Or we can do what we've always done, not allow it, we've seen how well that works on several occasions now.



Well they would benefit from the safety provided by others who have been trained and happen to be armed.



In this instance you have a situation where criminals affect us directly through criminal action. Then they affect us indirectly through being forced to give up our "fun time" to pay for their misdeeds. That doesn’t sound like a good solution to me.



So let me run this by you. Jim Smith is a responsible gun owner who has all the required training. At home he is armed and safe and that’s ok. He leaves home armed as well and drives around town, stops to pay a bill, buys food for dinner for the family and all that is ok. However, the second Jim sets a toe onto the college property that is NOT ok? Does he then become unsafe?



Well it's not a college "full" of guns. It's the people with concealed carry permits we're talking about. I'm sure your son wouldn’t want to shoot anyone either, I know I hope I never have to! In fact, I don't know any gun owner who ever wants to shoot anyone.



What if it was to save his own life? Would you be ok with it then?



I wonder what the troops think as well. Maybe if we have any who are reading this they can give us their $.02.

I don’t think you have offended anyone, certainly not myself. Being able to express our thoughts and receive input from others and talk about it all is a great thing.



When you originally said random I got the mental image of them handing out guns out of a box or something to just random people. So I misunderstood what you meant there. What I was trying to get across though is that if this law goes into effect then it's only concealed carry holders who will be allowed to then carry legally, not just any yahoo. If it's concealed you'll never know who is carrying. You're right that someone standing next to you, or sitting next to you in class could be carrying illegaly. That would of course be a criminal action and you can't stop criminals just by making laws. Thats where allowing those who are legally licensed and trained to carry a weapon comes into play. This allows those who are trained to be present if, god forbid, anyone does start shooting.



Well not everyone is a law abiding citizen but this law in particular is in regard to law abiding concealed carry permit holders(CCW). These folks have proven that they have a history of being law abiding, or they would never pass the Federal FBI background checks that are required.

This thread in particular was actually started in reference to a proposed law in Arizona that would allow CCW holders to carry their arms onto a college campus. These are the same lawful folks who carry firearms from day to day out in public, to the grovery store, the gas station, etc...You are among them now.



Well I'll hope you will forgive a small bit of laziness on my part. At this late hour I honestly don't feel like researching all of the school shootings in recent years. I do know that the Columbine shooters were 17 & 18, the Va Tech shooter was 23 years old, Charles Whitman was 25, Kipland Kinkel was 15, Patrick Purdy was 26, Charles Carl Roberts was 32, and the NIU shooter Steven Kazmierczak was 27. This isn't a full compendium of maniacs but just a snap shot of maniac, thug, scumbag shooters. In all actuality the age of the shooter is irrelevant since criminals come in all shapes, ages, and sizes. You are correct in that it is not the responsible people who are doing the damage. However it is the responsible people that you seem to be against being able to defend themselves and others.



No, I am not kidding you. Where is the data that shows that kids steal guns everyday from everywhere? Unless I have somehow misinterpreted what you said..."Then you got the 18 year olds trying to steal these guns from the carriers." So is "attack(ing) the gun holders" and "steal(ing) these guns from the carriers" different? If so, how?



I don't know if "all the time" is an acurate portrael. There are approx 200 Million firearms in the country, if "accidents happened "all the time" there would be nothing but stories on TV reporting accidental discharges(or"guns going off"). As far as guns going off when they fall to the floor/ground...that very much depends on the firearm as well as the way it falls. It is actually less frequent to have a dropped firearm go off than it is to have one actually go off. First the hammer on the firearm must be external, it also must be in a state where the hammer is in direct contact with the firing pin,thirdly it must fall directly on that hammer.



Well atleast you have actually fired weapons yourself. I can fully and thouroghly understand that someone who has atleast tried it might not like it and that is fine. I would never try to force someone to try and protect themselves if they felt uncomfortable with it. I only have a problem with someone who says "its bad" and has never tried it themselves. I do have a question about you and your "honey", don't tell him I called him "honey". If you and your honey go out to dinner and he is "packing" do you feel more or less safe? What if your "honey" decided to take a class on...well whatever...next semester? If concealed carry was "ok" on campus what would you feel ok about your honey carrying or not?



Thats good then, atleast armed guards can do something about an armed attack. I guess my question would be how many guards and to what level are these guards trained then? If there are only a handful of guards and an attack happens on the opposite end of campus, then what? As an example the police officers in the NIU shooting were there in minutes. So would these guards be in every class like potential CCW carriers might be?



I can't truely express how badly I fell about you being raped, not just once but multiple times. That is horrible in a multitude of ways! It is a good thing that you were not killed, but of course that does not always happen. My question would be...if you could have easily reached out and taken hold of a firearm and ended that horrible experience...would you? I know that I can never place myself in the situataion that you were placed in so I don't mean to try and bring up something that you may have "done away with" but not knowing any better forces me to ask the question.



That is correct but, 6 year olds are not CCW holders, and women who might be CCW holders and commit murders aren't exactly in the "good guy(gal) column".

Having said all that, I am too smart to get into a "man/woman" argument. My momma taught me better than that. I'll let you and 'HAAZIQ' deal with that

First of all, thank you for all your response to me. I appreciate the kind words. I guess I have alot to answer to now, don't I? Ok, let me see if I can try.

I did talk to my honey again tonight about it and he said that he would not like all those kids now-a-days having all those guns handed to them. He does understand all of it, and still says no.
Ok so if nobody wanted or could pay for the extra security, than maybe, just maybe, bear with me here now, the parents of the students could take turns guarding at some places or doors, or maybe voluteer, checked out extensively, volunteers from the community, of course being trained and armed. Check every person going in. NO EXCEPTIONS, and out if ya want. Ya suppose something like that could work?

No, I probably would not have used a gun. For some reason, I can't get past it, using a gun I mean. They just give me alot of fear, unless I see them going to a shoot or the woods to hunt or something like that, but I have a bigger fear for the people inside of a building carrying guns and not on the same level at all.

Honey also agreed that alot of different kinds of guns can go off if they hit the floor. I really did not need him to tell me that though.

Yes, I really enjoy talking to different people on this here CD land and listening to their different ideas and opinions. We can't solve the world's problems unless we cuss and discuss them. LOL

LIVE LAUGH AND LOVE

[jeepejeep]

Originally Posted by UNITE

No, I probably would not have used a gun. For some reason, I can't get past it, using a gun I mean. They just give me alot of fear, unless I see them going to a shoot or the woods to hunt or something like that, but I have a bigger fear for the people inside of a building carrying guns and not on the same level at all.

Honey also agreed that alot of different kinds of guns can go off if they hit the floor. I really did not need him to tell me that though.

Yes, I really enjoy talking to different people on this here CD land and listening to their different ideas and opinions. We can't solve the world's problems unless we cuss and discuss them. LOL

LIVE LAUGH AND LOVE

OK, I believe you are a "holophobe" which is a person with an irrational fear of weapons. This is not a dig or anything disrespectful. You fear something you know little to nothing about.

Your Honey is very misinformed also. There are NO modern firearms that will fire if dropped. Many are tested to the extreme such as being thrown out a car window at speed, dropped from buildings, run over by trucks, etc. If the gun is not defective, it will not go off under anything but the most extreme circumstances. If a gun's going to fire, someone has to pull the trigger unless as I stated something's wrong with it.

I have a cheap .25 caliber pistol that I bought new for $65 just because it was so cheap I had to see how long it would last. I've shot it till it's too hot to hold, thrown it off a cliff in the woods that was about 35 feet high onto rocks, ran it over with my Jeep and it never went off and the darn thing still works! Now you take a gun that costs $3,4,500 and up that's made with the utmost care and best materials and I have to believe the myth about it going off if dropped is pretty well discounted.

Many people have so many misconceptions of guns and how they work and what they can and can't do, then comment on them as if they really know. Most just ain't true.

[South Range Family]

Jeepejeep is quite correct. I see Unite repeating the same mistake over and over, hoping that people will start to believe it.

A transfer bar safety prevents weapons from being discharged when dropped. It's simply not going to happen.

She also shows a lack of knowledge on how a college campus is built. She wants to set up guard posts like a prison, or have volunteer parents searching kids. Come back to reality lady. College students range from 18 to 80. They are not little kids that need mommy to protect them. College campuses have numerous roads leading in and out. They are small cities with a diverese population.
I'm concerned about how your kids will cope with life when you are no longer there to smother them.