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I wasn't necessarily referring only to unionized workers. Tax payers ultimately have a lot of say in educators' salaries. Tax payers generally want to pay the least for the most. To say teachers are underpaid when the market value has already been established is simply holding a minority point of view. As in any job, you are only paid what you feel you are worth i.e. negotiate.
Since I hold a minority point of view, I try to personally give back by providing my children's teachers classroom supplies so they are not having to spend their meager salary on supplies.
My father was a teacher and a union steward. He didn't get into teaching for the money. He did it because it was a passion. It's like the old phrase, "Find a job you enjoy and you'll never work a day in your life.". Unfortunately, we all live in the real world and the low pay forced him to reconsider his choices. He quit after less than 10 years and pursued a more financially rewarding occupation while staying involved in "teaching" by being a den leader and youth sports coach.
The problem is without teachers, who teaches? Sure we have homeschooling but not enough to fix not enough teachers. In 2015, Arizona had the lowest average pay, 45K a year. We also have a teaching shortage that caused changes in testing criteria for math teachers.
i believe teachers should get pay what they are worth, but not every teacher deserves a blanket raise every year just because they are teachers. pay should be tied to classroom performance. an algebra teacher with large amount of passing students should get paid more than an algebra teacher with a failing class
How do you fairly compare the performance of two classes when the students are different between the two?
i believe teachers should get pay what they are worth, but not every teacher deserves a blanket raise every year just because they are teachers. pay should be tied to classroom performance. an algebra teacher with large amount of passing students should get paid more than an algebra teacher with a failing class
That's foolish.
At best it results in grade inflation. At worst it ignores the fact that not all children are equal. Teachers would be penalized by working with lowest performing students.
I work with only above average students who would knock any standardized test out if the park, does that inherently make me a better than someone who only teaches special ed? The answer is no btw.
And if we switch to value added (something Betsy Devon didn't even seem to understand) what happens to teachers who get kids who parents are dying, or going thru a divorce or something else that prevents their growth to some arbitrary level?
How do you fairly compare the performance of two classes when the students are different between the two?
Are you encouraging grade inflation?
You are right on both accounts. I teach four chemistry classes. Class averages are above 80% in two, just under 80% in another and below 70% in the fourth. So I should get paid more to teach three of the classes but be penalized for the fourth? Often the difference from class to class and year to year is the kids not the teacher. I never see class averages over 80% and I usually only give a few A's per year. No this year. I'm top heavy in three out of four classes. It's the kids not me.
Did you go to school in Illinois? I remember when I moved there as a very young adult in the 70s being shocked about the book fees.
No, I was in New York State outside New York City growing up. I even went to college in upstate NY. I have moved around alot though since I got married at 19.
Lived in New Jersey, Chicago, Tampa, then back to Chicago (Evanston) where I spent most of my life, then Louisiana, then Texas. It's been interesting.
A great teacher is worth their weight in gold. A poor teach is worse than worthless as its impossible to quantify the cost to society when they fail. One thing is certain; no two teachers are worth the same.
Which is why teachers' unions are BS. Over 70% of them make 6 figures here. Not even admins who are usually over 200k, but admins are a small percentage of the overall school costs. We pay $9k in school taxes out of the 16k in property taxes.
Their worth? Sure it varies throughout the country but to give a Kindergarten teacher $125k a year is beyond ridiculous (before full medical, etc.) and it happens here. I stick to my first sentence. You don't want to be dealing with this which has gotten way out of hand.
If a web guy makes $85k in Seattle, they can make $95-$105k in NY for cost of living adjustments. Why is it that a teacher in NC makes $40k (low) while a teacher on LI makes $125k? If I had to put numbers to it, I'd say in the $70k range would be fair & sufficient given supply, demand, skills, and responsibilities. I'd like to see anyone make a case for higher compared to other professions.
Which is why teachers' unions are BS. Over 70% of them make 6 figures here. Not even admins who are usually over 200k, but admins are a small percentage of the overall school costs. We pay $9k in school taxes out of the 16k in property taxes.
Their worth? Sure it varies throughout the country but to give a Kindergarten teacher $125k a year is beyond ridiculous (before full medical, etc.) and it happens here. I stick to my first sentence. You don't want to be dealing with this which has gotten way out of hand.
If a web guy makes $85k in Seattle, they can make $95-$105k in NY for cost of living adjustments. Why is it that a teacher in NC makes $40k (low) while a teacher on LI makes $125k? If I had to put numbers to it, I'd say in the $70k range would be fair & sufficient given supply, demand, skills, and responsibilities. I'd like to see anyone make a case for higher compared to other professions.
1. What do you do for a living, and how much do you make there?
2. We say that there is nothing more important than America's children, but then we cheat them in every way we can.
1. What do you do for a living, and how much do you make there?
2. We say that there is nothing more important than America's children, but then we cheat them in every way we can.
Considering we have children that get sent home with 1 side of 1 sheet for homework that takes them less than 10 minutes to complete, who's cheating who? Want to know the kicker? The teachers have them correct it themselves the next day too (for efficiency purposes of course). Guess who really has to do the pushing, even in good school districts? You guessed it - it starts at home.
So your stance is that children are important and so these teachers, regardless of performance, should make a lot. Our worst school district here (and they are pretty bad academically) - over 60% of those teachers make over $100k - it's public information. Unjustifiably disgusting.
As for my pay - like many professions, it is driven by profit and even with that I'm being underpaid (for other benefits that I've stayed for) compared to similar jobs even outside of NY. With a profession like teaching, you cannot base it against profit/revenue. Teachers have fought against basing it on performance which is understandable to a degree. But to OVERPAY so wildly (demanded by unions) with disregard to other areas (such as 40k in NC) - this is what leaves such distaste. Is $70k unfair for a teacher, their skills, and what they do on a daily basis? Many professions GROW businesses and require legitimate unique skills - they are much more deserving from a financial standpoint.
Considering we have children that get sent home with 1 side of 1 sheet for homework that takes them less than 10 minutes to complete, who's cheating who? Want to know the kicker? The teachers have them correct it themselves the next day too (for efficiency purposes of course). Guess who really has to do the pushing, even in good school districts? You guessed it - it starts at home.
So your stance is that children are important and so these teachers, regardless of performance, should make a lot. Our worst school district here (and they are pretty bad academically) - over 60% of those teachers make over $100k - it's public information. Unjustifiably disgusting.
As for my pay - like many professions, it is driven by profit and even with that I'm being underpaid (for other benefits that I've stayed for) compared to similar jobs even outside of NY. With a profession like teaching, you cannot base it against profit/revenue. Teachers have fought against basing it on performance which is understandable to a degree. But to OVERPAY so wildly (demanded by unions) with disregard to other areas (such as 40k in NC) - this is what leaves such distaste. Is $70k unfair for a teacher, their skills, and what they do on a daily basis? Many professions GROW businesses and require legitimate unique skills - they are much more deserving from a financial standpoint.
Ovi, it's not a very good sign when someone jumps to all sorts of conclusions about another poster based on nothing but his or her own beliefs.
1. I'm not in favor of kids correcting their own work, nor am I in favor of other students correcting students' work. In fact, although the court system has spoken on this issue, personally I think it's illegal and/or immoral for other kids to know who is passing or failing. But, that was covered in another thread. What I do know, from personal experience, was that in Prince George's County Public Schools in Maryland, after they passed TRIM way back in the 1980s, and my daily class load jumped from about 125 students per day to 240 students per day, I simply could not grade all the labs that my science students were doing. So I had to randomly select about half of the labs done to grade. Sorry, but there is a limit to how much paperwork a teacher can do, just as there is a limit to how much personal attention learners get from teachers when class sizes get too large.
2. As an administrator in Fairfax County Public Schools, I worked under a system where teachers were evaluated and pay was based on those evaluations. Personally, I thought it was a valid system, I was in favor of it, and I was disappointed with its demise. So stop making your inane claims that I am in favor of high pay "regardless of performance". Teachers don't like to be evaluated. In fact, I don't know of anyone in any job or profession who does. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen.
3. It's not my/our fault that you live in an area with an absurdly high cost of living. Get over it. If you don't want that high cost of living, move to Podunk, Iowa.
4. I notice that you don't actually state what your job or profession is. Why is that? And why is it that public employees, such as educators, should have their pay published. Our economy is interconnected. I'm paying for the services of those who work in the grocery store. Publish their pay. I'm paying for the cable technician who fixes my broken system. Publish their pay. But no, people like you just enjoy dumping on teachers. Frankly, I never cared that my salary was published in the newspaper, and before it was, if anyone asked, I didn't hesitate to tell them, even though it was none of their business.
5. Thanks for acknowledging that you think that we ought to use children for profit. (I know you didn't quite say that...although you sort of did, but I thought it would be fun to jump to silly conclusions...like you did; it can work both ways).
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