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The issue is not who is doing stuff, it's that it should all just be simply "stuff", not "girl stuff" or "boy stuff".
I agree! Boys have a tendency to do "stuff" that involves toy trucks. Girls do "stuff" that involves dolls.
It's just stuff. Why do people freak out when girls calmly do "stuff" with dolls?
When I was a boy, I played dolls with my sisters. But let me tell you, I certainly brought an element to their play that wasn't present when my sisters played dolls by themselves. Those dolls had had some adventures and their horizons were broadened when I got done with them.
The issue is not who is doing stuff, it's that it should all just be simply "stuff", not "girl stuff" or "boy stuff".
I agree, but I did notice when my daughters played with boys that they always did either traditional male "stuff" or gender-neutral "stuff" like board games, not more "girly" things like tea parties. Even with sports, always guy stuff or neutral, never girly things like gymnastics. (I know there is men's gymnastics, but it's a very small subset and different from girls'/women's.)
Hi Staphangel,
Society must change it's value system. Women need to build each other up instead of tearing each other down. I attribute this tearing down due to women being valued according to their appearance over all else. When women are shown and labeled as "powerful/confident/strong" it is always because they are under a certain age and look a certain overly sexualized way. Women that are smart/ kind/nice in any work position, but especially a position of power such as management or politics are torn down and ridiculed for their appearance, not based upon how they perform in a work related positon.
Ageism, and the worship of youth and devaluation of older people in our culture means that even a beautiful powerful idiot earning a ton of money loses all her power (and job offers) once she commits the unforgivable act of getting older.
Older men may also be devalued in our society, however because throughout life their success is not solely based on appearance the have more of a buffer rather than a crash and burn.
Women and men need to model the behavior they want to see in their children, both boys and girls. As a society we need to combat agism and promote women that do more than simply look like the flavor of the month. However women also need to not tear down women simply because they have more power based on their age and appearance.
NG
It all comes down to mom, if mom is seen as the craft-making cookie baking person, then that is the initial view of adult women. If mom is actively participates and organizes science/nature type activities that demonstrates the skills to advance in STEM fields, then daughters will take notice. Nothing wrong with crafts and baking, but mom's need to take an active and leading role in activities that include math, science, and STEM. Mom needs to demonstrate and model the fact that they are in fact "super smart," and that it is a good thing.
As a father, who has raised both daughter and son, I don't buy this "it's mom's fault" at all. I am actively involved in STEM, esp in passing STEM along to kids, male and female. When I work with the kids, I don't see huge differences; they all love actively doing science. Along the way we lose a lot of kids of both genders from science, but somehow lose more girls than boys. Just from experience with my own daughter, she internalized setbacks much more strongly than boys. Even though she is hypercompetitive in athletics, academically she had a harder time learning to assert herself to teachers and classmates in school. Today she is an equal and valued member of her professor's research team, but she had to survive high school to get into a college physics program. Interestingly she did text me from a conference the other day that "It was no longer male dominated, but a full mix of genders and races."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
Always the parents' fault, usually focused on the mom! You didn't get the Nobel Prize in physics? It's your mom's fault for baking cookies. You do realize there is math and science involved in baking cookies?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
It's actually more like, "boys and girls should just do 'boy stuff' ". Girl stuff, like caring and nurturing, and G*d forbid baking cookies is bad. Forget those cookies, go split some wood! Crafts? Well, woodworking is OK, but sewing, knitting, crochet is NOT!
Katarina, I think we are much in agreement here. Not only on girls, but my son is a pretty good baker that he learned in Scouts. A big part of the Boy Scout program is about learning to cook and take care of yourself because those are life skills applicable to everyone, male or female.
Hi Staphangel,
Society must change it's value system. Women need to build each other up instead of tearing each other down. I attribute this tearing down due to women being valued according to their appearance over all else. When women are shown and labeled as "powerful/confident/strong" it is always because they are under a certain age and look a certain overly sexualized way. Women that are smart/ kind/nice in any work position, but especially a position of power such as management or politics are torn down and ridiculed for their appearance, not based upon how they perform in a work related positon.
Ageism, and the worship of youth and devaluation of older people in our culture means that even a beautiful powerful idiot earning a ton of money loses all her power (and job offers) once she commits the unforgivable act of getting older.
Older men may also be devalued in our society, however because throughout life their success is not solely based on appearance the have more of a buffer rather than a crash and burn.
Women and men need to model the behavior they want to see in their children, both boys and girls. As a society we need to combat agism and promote women that do more than simply look like the flavor of the month. However women also need to not tear down women simply because they have more power based on their age and appearance.
NG
Oh, how sexist! Do you think Ruth Bader Ginsburg is "under a certain age"? She is, she's under 85. (She just turned 84 a day or so ago.) Do you think she looks "sexualized"? Women are criticized for their appearance more than men, true. This is particularly true in politics. Hillary Clinton was always criticized, no matter what she wore, how she fixed her hair. Every first lady is criticized for what she wears, too dowdy, too sharp, too cheap (Michelle Obama got a few things at Target), too expensive (Nancy Reagan), etc. Bernie Sanders, OTOH, usually looked like he just rolled out of bed, an no one criticized him. Hillary Clinton was criticized for her weight, but Trump's and even Christie's was rarely brought up. However, I think that's a different issue than getting women interested in STEM.
Frankly, I think a mom who bakes cookies with her daughter OR son is doing a lot to encourage an interest in STEM.
Always the parents' fault, usually focused on the mom! You didn't get the Nobel Prize in physics? It's your mom's fault for baking cookies. You do realize there is math and science involved in baking cookies?
When it comes to what young girls think of grown women, yes, it comes back to how they perceive the most present grown woman in their life...who is that again, mom. Un-wad your panties and calm yourself down, like it or not, how mom acts, does, speak will have the large affect on a young girl.
I agree! Boys have a tendency to do "stuff" that involves toy trucks. Girls do "stuff" that involves dolls.
It's just stuff. Why do people freak out when girls calmly do "stuff" with dolls?
When I was a boy, I played dolls with my sisters. But let me tell you, I certainly brought an element to their play that wasn't present when my sisters played dolls by themselves. Those dolls had had some adventures and their horizons were broadened when I got done with them.
Says you....they didn't broaden YOUR horizons though? - not unless you actually saw value in what THEY were doing.
When it comes to what young girls think of grown women, yes, it comes back to how they perceive the most present grown woman in their life...who is that again, mom. Like it or not, how mom acts, does, speak will have the large affect on a young girl.
We moms should just accept it; whatever problems our kids have, whatever they didn't accomplish that they wished they would have is the mom's fault. Their weight problems, their anorexia problems, EVERYTHING is the mother's fault.
Last edited by toobusytoday; 03-18-2017 at 04:31 PM..
Reason: removed the panty wad comment. ick.
Oh, how sexist! Do you think Ruth Bader Ginsburg is "under a certain age"? She is, she's under 85. (She just turned 84 a day or so ago.) Do you think she looks "sexualized"? Women are criticized for their appearance more than men, true. This is particularly true in politics. Hillary Clinton was always criticized, no matter what she wore, how she fixed her hair. Every first lady is criticized for what she wears, too dowdy, too sharp, too cheap (Michelle Obama got a few things at Target), too expensive (Nancy Reagan), etc. Bernie Sanders, OTOH, usually looked like he just rolled out of bed, an no one criticized him. Hillary Clinton was criticized for her weight, but Trump's and even Christie's was rarely brought up. However, I think that's a different issue than getting women interested in STEM.
Frankly, I think a mom who bakes cookies with her daughter OR son is doing a lot to encourage an interest in STEM.
I also think it is sexist to drive girls AWAY from "traditionally female roles" as if they are choices that are horribly wrong and demeaning. Ask a HS girl what she wants to be and if she says a mother she will be lectured for hours and told how dumb that is, if she says a chemist she will praised and people will offer to pay her college tuition. Frankly the whole baby business that has soared over the last two decades is because girls were no longer taught how to care for children or take care of a home. So now they look to registry lists and mommy blogs and OBGYN for every little sniffle, because they never learned how to care for a child. It's really, really sad.
There is a trend to feminize boys and "masculininze" girls, and its not doing EITHER any benefits. Kids should play however they want to play and be taught that it is just as valuable to be able to cook as it is to fix the lawnmower. If the parents actually do these things themselves anymore.
As an aside, there are so many targeted opportunities for STEM to girls, it's almost maddening. There are more opportunities for girls than for boys now in the sciences.
There is no point of reference or experience for a youngster to make this opinion. They have zero life or teaching knowledge of intelligence in its true definition. To them an adult is intelligent if they can fix their bike wheel! So placed in perspective it's an opinion based on limited experience and knowledge.
It's not gender ...It's age mostly.
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