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Old 09-13-2017, 05:17 AM
 
Location: So Ca
11,023 posts, read 11,087,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Both of these posts show some of the fallacies of redshirting.

CA4Now-yes, the cutoff determines whether a child is "young" or "old" for his/her grade. That's been my point all along. It's something that some parents and even teachers don't get. I have a post about this upthread.
The cutoff in California was moved from Dec. 1 to Sept 1 several years ago. I would imagine that the reason for the change was that there were too many barely 5 year olds attending kindergarten who had trouble keeping up with the more difficult curriculum.

As has been mentioned before, if all you were doing was playing in the sandbox, learning to be away from your mother for 3 hours, and managing to get along with your fellow students, it probably didn't matter whether you were 4 and a half or 6.

I don't think there's any "fallacy" of redshirting. It's completely understandable that parents would not want their child to be competing academically, physically and socially with children up to 18 months older than their child. You want there to be a fairly level playing field, and a 5 year old has a much harder time competing with a 6 and a half year old.
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Old 09-13-2017, 08:21 AM
 
3,759 posts, read 2,117,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Informed Info View Post
Because then those redshirting parents, for whatever reason they do it in the first place, will start their kid at age 7.
Yeah, I see what you are saying, but people aren't going to keep their kids out of school forever. The older you get, the less significant the age gap becomes. I'd personally be in favor of raising the school start age to 6, and if people want to keep their kids out until 7 then so be it, but I don't think a lot of people would do that. Of course, that will never happen, partly because the extra year of day care would be onerous for too many people.

What I really wish they would do, and it's something that would be feasible, is keeping kindergarten for 5s, but eliminating most of the academic requirements and going back to a play- and social-based kindergarten. This alone would ease the stress on the young ones, while discouraging parents of the older kids from holding them back.
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Old 09-13-2017, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
81,207 posts, read 90,571,130 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CA4Now View Post
The cutoff in California was moved from Dec. 1 to Sept 1 several years ago. I would imagine that the reason for the change was that there were too many barely 5 year olds attending kindergarten who had trouble keeping up with the more difficult curriculum.

As has been mentioned before, if all you were doing was playing in the sandbox, learning to be away from your mother for 3 hours, and managing to get along with your fellow students, it probably didn't matter whether you were 4 and a half or 6.

I don't think there's any "fallacy" of redshirting. It's completely understandable that parents would not want their child to be competing academically, physically and socially with children up to 18 months older than their child. You want there to be a fairly level playing field, and a 5 year old has a much harder time competing with a 6 and a half year old.
Well, I would never try to "imagine" what the lawmakers are thinking. Many states have moved up their start date, as someone said either on this thread or another similar one, based on no apparent scientific evidence. I don't know how much the K curriculum has actually changed in say the last 30 years. As I said, my district in upstate NY taught reading in kindergarten back in the 1980s, and they had a December 31 cut-off. High school graduation rates are all over the place and seem to have nothing to do with kindergarten start dates.

Your dismissive attitude towards the younger kids is quite disrespectful. "Level playing field" my derriere! These parents want their kids to be the oldest, and the biggest. It's throughout this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
Yeah, I see what you are saying, but people aren't going to keep their kids out of school forever. The older you get, the less significant the age gap becomes. I'd personally be in favor of raising the school start age to 6, and if people want to keep their kids out until 7 then so be it, but I don't think a lot of people would do that. Of course, that will never happen, partly because the extra year of day care would be onerous for too many people.

What I really wish they would do, and it's something that would be feasible, is keeping kindergarten for 5s, but eliminating most of the academic requirements and going back to a play- and social-based kindergarten. This alone would ease the stress on the young ones, while discouraging parents of the older kids from holding them back.
Well, no, people won't keep them out forever, but there've already been examples in this thread of people keeping kids out past 6. I do think in many states there is a requirement that they start by age 8, so that would be the upper limit. Moving up start times has done nothing to stop red-shirting. And as some have stated, then the pressure to make K more academic increases, with all these older kids. It doesn't seem like making K more academic has actually improved HS grad or any other metric.

I would still like to see some kids started in Aug/September and some in January. The January starts could go for a summer session and be ready with the others for first grade the next fall. How that would fly, I'm not sure.
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Old 09-13-2017, 07:31 PM
 
Location: So Ca
11,023 posts, read 11,087,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Well, I would never try to "imagine" what the lawmakers are thinking.
I guess I wouldn't, either.

"...as a result of legislation introduced four years ago by then-state Sen. Joe Simitian, D-Palo Alto, now a member of the Santa Clara County Board of Supervisors, said the 2010 Kindergarten Readiness Act was motivated by concerns that regular kindergarten had become more challenging and had in effect become what some educators call “the new first grade.”

Simitian said there was “a consensus among educators and in the research literature that youngsters who turned 5 by Dec. 2 were too often a little young for 21st century kindergarten.”

A report by the Legislative Analyst’s Office at the time asserted that “data suggest children who are older tend to perform better on standardized tests…."

https://edsource.org/2014/state-impl...toff-age/69046

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Your dismissive attitude towards the younger kids is quite disrespectful. "Level playing field" my derriere! These parents want their kids to be the oldest, and the biggest.
Please refrain from making assumptions about those of us who had a youngest child in kindergarten. You have no idea what any of us are or were thinking.
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Old 09-13-2017, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
81,207 posts, read 90,571,130 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CA4Now View Post
I guess I wouldn't, either.

"...as a result of legislation introduced four years ago by then-state Sen. Joe Simitian, D-Palo Alto, now a member of the Santa Clara County Board of Supervisors, said the 2010 Kindergarten Readiness Act was motivated by concerns that regular kindergarten had become more challenging and had in effect become what some educators call “the new first grade.”

Simitian said there was “a consensus among educators and in the research literature that youngsters who turned 5 by Dec. 2 were too often a little young for 21st century kindergarten.”

A report by the Legislative Analyst’s Office at the time asserted that “data suggest children who are older tend to perform better on standardized tests…."

https://edsource.org/2014/state-impl...toff-age/69046



Please refrain from making assumptions about those of us who had a youngest child in kindergarten. You have no idea what any of us are or were thinking.
And we know that politicians are experts on education, no? No! That's why we have stuff like "No Child Left Behind" which has now morphed to "Every Student Succeeds Act", etc. What educational background does the former Sen. Simitian have? If he thinks there was a consensus among eduators and in the research literature, he's very misinformed. Data suggest!

You have mocked these "younger" kids several times. I have one who was one of the youngest. I know what I was thinking. I also have a good friend with three summer birthday boys, including two in August, one as late as August 13, who did not redshirt her kids and they all did very well in school.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 09-13-2017 at 07:51 PM..
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:49 PM
 
18 posts, read 5,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I also have a good friend with three summer birthday boys, including two in August, one as late as August 13, who did not redshirt her kids and they all did very well in school.
It would be really nice to hear stories about kids who were redshirted and did poorly in school. I hear a lot of stories about kids who were redshirted and did well in school, that the opposite would be nice for a change. Old-for-their-grade people who did poorly in school: bring it on!
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
81,207 posts, read 90,571,130 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selfapple View Post
It would be really nice to hear stories about kids who were redshirted and did poorly in school. I hear a lot of stories about kids who were redshirted and did well in school, that the opposite would be nice for a change. Old-for-their-grade people who did poorly in school: bring it on!
I know several who did not do exceptionally well. I also know one who decided in high school to make up some credits in summer school and graduate with the other kids her age.
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Old 09-13-2017, 11:04 PM
 
18 posts, read 5,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I know several who did not do exceptionally well. I also know one who decided in high school to make up some credits in summer school and graduate with the other kids her age.
Did she graduate high school in 3 years or did she graduate high school in 4 years with a year of college credit under her belt?
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Old 09-13-2017, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
81,207 posts, read 90,571,130 times
Reputation: 27802
Quote:
Originally Posted by selfapple View Post
Did she graduate high school in 3 years or did she graduate high school in 4 years with a year of college credit under her belt?
She graduated in three years, including at least one summer. She took the required number of credits for 4 years. She may have taken some AP courses.
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:33 AM
 
Location: So Ca
11,023 posts, read 11,087,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
What educational background does the former Sen. Simitian have? If he thinks there was a consensus among eduators and in the research literature, he's very misinformed.
Joe’s Biography | State Senator Joe Simitian

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
You have mocked these "younger" kids several times
I have never mocked any of these younger children....I have one myself, as well as nieces and nephews who were the youngest. I also know several friends and children of friends who were the youngest in their classes.

Why you insist on making assumptions and labeling posters is difficult to understand, unless you just want to argue because others don't share your opinion.
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