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Old 08-10-2017, 12:00 PM
 
12,055 posts, read 7,930,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
Last I checked the US still had religious freedom.

If the young Mennonites, Amish and so forth choose to leave the faith, then they will. If they choose to stay, who's to judge that they are not better off to live their religious preference?

Should we start dictating religious values if they they are not physically or mentally harmful to themselves or others?
If the children are not given the authority to choose to go to school, then the children have no religious freedom, only parental coercion.

Who is to judge? The children are to judge. If they want to go to school and the government forces them to obey their parents, then the government is violating the children's religious autonomy. The US Constitution says that all persons may choose their religion. It does not say they must be 18 or older to do it.

The freedom of religion is not only the freedom to choose any or no religion. It is also the freedom to choose not to interpret the teachings literally. Religious freedom means you can decide that you will be a liberal or a conservative, and live the teachings fully, or only partially. Even if you are a minor!

Any time minors are prohibited from obtaining their birth certificate without parental consent, or denied access to documents that allow them to prove their residency, or told that because they are under 18 they may not register for school without parental consent, the government is being used by the parents as an agent of coercion. In effect the parents are imposing their religion on the kids, by force. This is true unless and until the children are allowed to do every step in the process of school registration, without being barred from doing so by a lack of parental consent. In other words, the children of these parents should be allowed to formally request a birth certificate and proof of residency, just like an adult can, and sign up for school by filling out the forms, just as an adult can.

Unless and until this happens, the government is unconstitutionally violating the children's religious freedom, because the Constitution does not limit religious freedom to those who are 18 years and older. Therefore, it is unconstitutional for there to be a rule requiring a person to be 18 or older to obtain their birth certificate without parental consent. Such a law removes authority from children, and abridges on their freedom to interpret their faith non-literally.

We need to stop treating children as property. They are people. Yes, they are young people, but people nonetheless, not chattel.

Last edited by ncole1; 08-10-2017 at 12:40 PM..
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:49 AM
 
8,958 posts, read 2,113,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humble and Kind View Post
Actually yes it is similar to Catholic. I'm Catholic, they have confession, communion, and other similarities. No, it's not Catholic, but very similar.
LOL, that's like saying all religion is like the Catholic religion becuase they all prey.
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Old 08-11-2017, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Rhode Island
5,749 posts, read 9,482,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Unfortunately, up until remarkably recently, we did exactly that to Native Americans. But Amish were not "savages" needing to be "tamed", so they got complete freedom to retain their lifeways and religion, instead of repression and forced assimilation.
Christian missionaries have always tried to convert the "ignorant" in every corner of the globe. But no one prevented the Indians from believing in their religion nor forced their assimilation. The Indian experience was completely different. Sorry, not a good analogy.
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Old 08-11-2017, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Rhode Island
5,749 posts, read 9,482,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
If the children are not given the authority to choose to go to school, then the children have no religious freedom, only parental coercion.

Who is to judge? The children are to judge. If they want to go to school and the government forces them to obey their parents, then the government is violating the children's religious autonomy. The US Constitution says that all persons may choose their religion. It does not say they must be 18 or older to do it.

The freedom of religion is not only the freedom to choose any or no religion. It is also the freedom to choose not to interpret the teachings literally. Religious freedom means you can decide that you will be a liberal or a conservative, and live the teachings fully, or only partially. Even if you are a minor!

Any time minors are prohibited from obtaining their birth certificate without parental consent, or denied access to documents that allow them to prove their residency, or told that because they are under 18 they may not register for school without parental consent, the government is being used by the parents as an agent of coercion. In effect the parents are imposing their religion on the kids, by force. This is true unless and until the children are allowed to do every step in the process of school registration, without being barred from doing so by a lack of parental consent. In other words, the children of these parents should be allowed to formally request a birth certificate and proof of residency, just like an adult can, and sign up for school by filling out the forms, just as an adult can.

Unless and until this happens, the government is unconstitutionally violating the children's religious freedom, because the Constitution does not limit religious freedom to those who are 18 years and older. Therefore, it is unconstitutional for there to be a rule requiring a person to be 18 or older to obtain their birth certificate without parental consent. Such a law removes authority from children, and abridges on their freedom to interpret their faith non-literally.

We need to stop treating children as property. They are people. Yes, they are young people, but people nonetheless, not chattel.
Sounds good on paper, but an enormous can of worms.

You do realize you're arguing for more power to the state to remove to remove minors from their homes on their own say so? I believe the only time the state has this power currently is when children are considered to be abused and neglected, etc. not for their family customs or traditions. This would also apply to Christians, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, Buddhists, and so on if enacted. Quite a slippery slope.

On a practical level, a lot of families allow children to develop their own beliefs (or not) as they get older- say 12+. Most children will eventually determine their own degree of religiosity. I really don't think we need more interference from the "authorities" in these matters.
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Old 08-11-2017, 10:23 AM
 
275 posts, read 81,195 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1.. View Post
LOL, that's like saying all religion is like the Catholic religion becuase they all prey.
I was too lazy to go into full detail, my apologies. Still not going to go through everything he told me. To make it simple, everything he told me I said, "Oh, so your catholic?" He said yes.

Education is the focus of the thread, religion doesn't play much into their beliefs of education. Nothing in their religion says "do not educate your children".

I know I'm not describing it very well.
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:10 PM
 
12,055 posts, read 7,930,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
Sounds good on paper, but an enormous can of worms.

You do realize you're arguing for more power to the state to remove to remove minors from their homes on their own say so?
I am arguing for no such thing at all. Adults do not have the right to obtain free transportation at government expense from their home; neither do minors, nor should they. Otherwise anybody, minor or adult, could essentially get half of their round trip travel costs paid for when on vacation.

Now do I think a minor should have a right to use a public bus, by paying the fare? Of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
I believe the only time the state has this power currently is when children are considered to be abused and neglected, etc. not for their family customs or traditions. This would also apply to Christians, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, Buddhists, and so on if enacted. Quite a slippery slope.

On a practical level, a lot of families allow children to develop their own beliefs (or not) as they get older- say 12+. Most children will eventually determine their own degree of religiosity. I really don't think we need more interference from the "authorities" in these matters.
I am talking in reference to those in their teens, in case the context didn't make that clear.
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Rhode Island
5,749 posts, read 9,482,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
I am arguing for no such thing at all. Adults do not have the right to obtain free transportation at government expense from their home; neither do minors, nor should they. Otherwise anybody, minor or adult, could essentially get half of their round trip travel costs paid for when on vacation.

Now do I think a minor should have a right to use a public bus, by paying the fare? Of course.
Huh? Your post- the one to which I responded- said nothing about transportation.
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Old 08-14-2017, 07:07 PM
 
12,055 posts, read 7,930,221 times
Reputation: 8220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
Huh? Your post- the one to which I responded- said nothing about transportation.
You said "remove minors from their homes". Explain how "removal" could occur without transportation. If you are talking about just getting the minor to go to school, this is not the state removing the minor, this is the minor taking the school bus to school. Is this what you mean?

Last edited by ncole1; 08-14-2017 at 07:20 PM..
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Old 08-14-2017, 11:46 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
64,657 posts, read 54,231,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
Christian missionaries have always tried to convert the "ignorant" in every corner of the globe. But no one prevented the Indians from believing in their religion nor forced their assimilation. The Indian experience was completely different. Sorry, not a good analogy.
What? Of course they did. They were taken to residential schools, where they were beaten for any manifestation of traditional beliefs, beaten for speaking their language/s, had their hair cut upon arrival, and had Christianity inculcated. You must have heard of the boarding schools? Sorry, there must be a miscommunication or error in your post. Maybe you meant to say "no one prevented the Amish from believing in their religion..." ?

In any case, the missionaries acted as government agents in setting up and running residential schools. The federal government contracted with them to run those schools.
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Old 08-17-2017, 07:47 AM
 
1,849 posts, read 646,271 times
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And then there are some parents that require kids to go college even though the kids have no desire to actually study. They get a degree in archeology or gender studies because it's "fun", graduate with a <3.0 GPA, and can't find work. So they go to grad school, racking up $40K in debt.

And by now they are 24-25 years old, no savings, no house, NO JOB, and a whole lotta debt. But, hey, they're educated, so I guess that's all that matters? Big picture folks. Big picture.
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