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Old 08-24-2017, 01:39 PM
 
1,889 posts, read 657,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I'm always glad that I bookmarked this when I read posts like the above. As education level goes up, income goes up and unemployment goes down. https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm Yes, there are outliers, but.

What they need to add is debt to income ratio to demonstrate the full financial picture.

All those kids $40k to $100K in debt.
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Old 08-24-2017, 02:43 PM
Status: "On Break" (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
81,411 posts, read 91,964,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
What they need to add is debt to income ratio to demonstrate the full financial picture.

All those kids $40k to $100K in debt.
Oh, no they aren't. My kids graduated from undergrad with no debt. Many others do the same. 71% of undergrads do graduate with debt, 66% of public college grads and 75% of private college grads. The average debt from a public college is $25,500 and average from a private is $32,300. The figure for private for profit is $39,950. Those numbers are about what it costs to buy a new car, or less.
https://studentloanhero.com/student-...bt-statistics/

Graduate debt is higher. Note these are 2012 figures, but they're a good compilation.

Here are some 2014 stats:
https://studentloans.net/student-loan-debt-statistics/
Note that 40% of student loan debt is for grad school, which has far lower enrollment.

The limit on student loans for undergrads is $31,000 to $57,500 depending on one's status. Most are considered dependent so the lower figure applies. So these stories you hear about undergrads graduating with a debt of $100K a)are greatly exaggerated; b)may represent some other forms of debt such as credit card, car loans (I know of a couple who got a car loan using their student loans as income), maybe loans from family, things like that.
https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/l...d-unsubsidized
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Old 08-24-2017, 06:29 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,050 posts, read 2,680,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
Because a child becoming educated through high school benefits the public, and a high school graduate going to college benefits the individual.
Oh, I see ... so becoming a doctor via higher education doesn't benefit the public at all.

Right.

Care to try again?
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Old 08-24-2017, 07:11 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,050 posts, read 2,680,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
"truant" means you have a lousy education ethic that probably came from poor parenting. Without an education, you're likely to become a burden on society so society insists that children attend school.

Nobody is "entitled" to a college education. You can be as poor as a church mouse and work your way through state schools without borrowing money and receive an excellent education. The "entitled" part is from people who see their friends who got A's in High School get into good colleges and put themselves on a career track to be affluent. Those "entitled" people got C's and no college that is worth much is going to admit them so they go to 3rd tier state schools or community colleges where they attended nearly useless watered down classes that are basically remedial high school. I remember them whining at Occupy Wall Street events. $50K in student loans to attend Outer Western Nowhere State with a psych or soc degree and now working as a Starbucks barista. Cry me a river. I'd rather hear from the dirt poor kid who got A's and nailed their SAT exam, attended an elite school with a big scholarship, and is now making jillions at Goldman Sachs. Or is on some other similar 1%er career track.
And how often does THAT happen.

All you seem to care about are those prodigal exceptions -- which is one of the major components to class warfare that occurs quite frequently in this country.

FAR too many people approach education just like the Nazis -- education is to serve one purpose and one purpose only: To teach you a job and how to make money.

Guess what you end up with when education is reduced to vocational training?

You end up with excellent accountants, lawyers, engineers, managers, etc. who don't know jack about anything else but their jobs.

You'll end up with entire generations being as dumb as doornails about any subject beyond what they do for a living -- they consistently fail at skills like critical thinking, problem solving (in any area outside of their job), or understanding geopolitics and history thus resulting in some of the stupidest political decisions ever foisted on the more knowledgeable public. Some of these people don't even understand how our government works or what's in the Constitution beyond the 1st and 2nd Amendments.

But by God they can do your taxes lickety split, build a mean bridge, or program a computer with his eyes closed.

We end up with human machines, quite frankly.

Who gives a rat's ass how much money they make or whether they're on a 1% career track working for Goldman Sachs? That's craptastic elitism and I've always found that attitude rather despicable.

And for crying out loud, the college experience is more than just your major and what job you end up with out of school. It USED to be that any honest day's work was something to be proud of -- but people like you have driven the work ethic into the toilet because you've made working at a Starbucks embarrassing and shameful. Then you wonder why kids don't want to work until the very day they snag the CEO spot at *ahem* Goldman Sachs.

The overall college experience changes a person -- usually for the better. That's why I can usually tell if someone went to college or not after a 10 minute (or less) conversation. I remember the first time I hooked up with some old high school friends during my stint in college -- friends I was very close to. They didn't go to college. I realized after about an hour that I simply had nothing in common with them anymore. The difference just a few years of college had made in my own personality and outlook on life made me actually wonder how I had ever been friends with those people in the first place. That's how profound the change actually was.

Anyone who thinks college is just about a job misses a huge part of what going to college is all about -- and you don't need to go to some elite private school to obtain that. Yes, even one of those "horrible" so-called "third tier" state schools with so-called "watered down" courses can make all the difference in the world.

And most employers don't ask for transcripts -- they just care that you had the wherewithall to actually get a degree. Just having a four-year degree increases your chances of finding a decent job exponentially. Not everyone is going to be a member of the 1% ... in fact, uhm ... only 1% of the population will be, uhm, a part of the 1%. But you have a better chance of being in the top 50% with ANY 4 year-degree from ANY university than you do entering the work force with nothing but a high school diploma.

As for working a trade -- sorry, but not everyone is cut out for the trades just like not everyone is cut out for college. You need to have a latent talent in one of the trades to be any good at it. You can be taught how to be an electrician, for instance, but that doesn't mean you'll excel enough at it to make a living doing it. Just as a person can teach you how to paint, but they can't teach you how to be the next Rembrandt. Without the raw talent you'll never get anywhere. Better they go to college and earn C's than to work a trade they suck at.

People need to stop college bashing; they need to stop assuming that all but the best private universities offer little more than "watered down" courses. There was a LOT of rampant assumption and myth wrapped up in your post. So much, in fact, that it sounds more like propaganda than anything else.

And, on a final note: Yeah, people like you always have these romantic notions of the dirt poor kid from the slums who works his tail off to afford a fantasic education at a top tier university (I'd LOVE to know what part-time job these kids work to pay off their $30,000 per year tuition) and ends up a 1%er at Goldman Sachs, but if you really think that happens THESE days, you really need to turn off the Oprah channel.

Even the Wall Street Journal has run several articles admitting that upward mobility in this country is largely a myth. This is NOT the "land of opportunity" it used to be, and those inspirational rags-to-riches stories are a pleasant fantasy in the era of global economies. Now we're all in a fast race to the bottom and within a few generations, not even a degree from an Ivy League school will save you.
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Old 08-24-2017, 10:08 PM
 
962 posts, read 327,927 times
Reputation: 4079
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
Because a child becoming educated through high school benefits the public, and a high school graduate going to college benefits the individual.
Except that a high school educate is now only going to get you a job flipping burgers - you now need a college education in order to get simple clerical jobs. Today's high school education is equivalent to having an 8th grade education in the 50s, while the college degree of today is worth (jobwise) what a high school education was 50 years ago.

And all education benefits the individual, as all education benefits the public.
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Old 08-24-2017, 11:10 PM
 
203 posts, read 59,107 times
Reputation: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
"truant" means you have a lousy education ethic that probably came from poor parenting. Without an education, you're likely to become a burden on society so society insists that children attend school.
Couldn't the same argument be made for compuslory college (with an exception for those who join the military)?
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Old 08-24-2017, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Arkansas
1,494 posts, read 406,030 times
Reputation: 3240
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedZin View Post
Because old people didn't have to go to college to have good careers, and people now seem to have to go to college to have good careers and old people (some of them, not all) see this as "being lazy and not working hard" for some reason.
True. Both my parents had decent jobs without college degrees. My dad worked at a job in the 1970s, that these days, would only accept people with engineering degrees. But he had only 2 years of junior college.


And some people can be judgmental of young people who can't get a decent job with a degree. They say "but you went to college!" They don't understand how the job market, expectations, and the economy has changed over time. They just don't get it.
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Old 08-25-2017, 10:48 AM
 
4,320 posts, read 2,055,114 times
Reputation: 10480
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguitar77111 View Post
Couldn't the same argument be made for compuslory college (with an exception for those who join the military)?
Almost but I'd change that to be for those who can handle college. Not everyone can regardless of current social opinion. Others should go to trade or tech school.

And yes I'm now of the opinion that college or tech school is important enough to our country that it should be provided just as high school is now -- but only for those who can make productive use of the education or trade.
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Old 08-25-2017, 02:50 PM
Status: "On Break" (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
81,411 posts, read 91,964,458 times
Reputation: 28071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
And how often does THAT happen.

All you seem to care about are those prodigal exceptions -- which is one of the major components to class warfare that occurs quite frequently in this country.

FAR too many people approach education just like the Nazis -- education is to serve one purpose and one purpose only: To teach you a job and how to make money.

Guess what you end up with when education is reduced to vocational training?

You end up with excellent accountants, lawyers, engineers, managers, etc. who don't know jack about anything else but their jobs.

You'll end up with entire generations being as dumb as doornails about any subject beyond what they do for a living -- they consistently fail at skills like critical thinking, problem solving (in any area outside of their job), or understanding geopolitics and history thus resulting in some of the stupidest political decisions ever foisted on the more knowledgeable public. Some of these people don't even understand how our government works or what's in the Constitution beyond the 1st and 2nd Amendments.

But by God they can do your taxes lickety split, build a mean bridge, or program a computer with his eyes closed.

We end up with human machines, quite frankly.


Who gives a rat's ass how much money they make or whether they're on a 1% career track working for Goldman Sachs? That's craptastic elitism and I've always found that attitude rather despicable.

And for crying out loud, the college experience is more than just your major and what job you end up with out of school. It USED to be that any honest day's work was something to be proud of -- but people like you have driven the work ethic into the toilet because you've made working at a Starbucks embarrassing and shameful. Then you wonder why kids don't want to work until the very day they snag the CEO spot at *ahem* Goldman Sachs.

The overall college experience changes a person -- usually for the better. That's why I can usually tell if someone went to college or not after a 10 minute (or less) conversation. I remember the first time I hooked up with some old high school friends during my stint in college -- friends I was very close to. They didn't go to college. I realized after about an hour that I simply had nothing in common with them anymore. The difference just a few years of college had made in my own personality and outlook on life made me actually wonder how I had ever been friends with those people in the first place. That's how profound the change actually was.

Anyone who thinks college is just about a job misses a huge part of what going to college is all about -- and you don't need to go to some elite private school to obtain that. Yes, even one of those "horrible" so-called "third tier" state schools with so-called "watered down" courses can make all the difference in the world.

And most employers don't ask for transcripts -- they just care that you had the wherewithall to actually get a degree. Just having a four-year degree increases your chances of finding a decent job exponentially. Not everyone is going to be a member of the 1% ... in fact, uhm ... only 1% of the population will be, uhm, a part of the 1%. But you have a better chance of being in the top 50% with ANY 4 year-degree from ANY university than you do entering the work force with nothing but a high school diploma.

As for working a trade -- sorry, but not everyone is cut out for the trades just like not everyone is cut out for college. You need to have a latent talent in one of the trades to be any good at it. You can be taught how to be an electrician, for instance, but that doesn't mean you'll excel enough at it to make a living doing it. Just as a person can teach you how to paint, but they can't teach you how to be the next Rembrandt. Without the raw talent you'll never get anywhere. Better they go to college and earn C's than to work a trade they suck at.

People need to stop college bashing; they need to stop assuming that all but the best private universities offer little more than "watered down" courses. There was a LOT of rampant assumption and myth wrapped up in your post. So much, in fact, that it sounds more like propaganda than anything else.

And, on a final note: Yeah, people like you always have these romantic notions of the dirt poor kid from the slums who works his tail off to afford a fantasic education at a top tier university (I'd LOVE to know what part-time job these kids work to pay off their $30,000 per year tuition) and ends up a 1%er at Goldman Sachs, but if you really think that happens THESE days, you really need to turn off the Oprah channel.

Even the Wall Street Journal has run several articles admitting that upward mobility in this country is largely a myth. This is NOT the "land of opportunity" it used to be, and those inspirational rags-to-riches stories are a pleasant fantasy in the era of global economies. Now we're all in a fast race to the bottom and within a few generations, not even a degree from an Ivy League school will save you.
Nice wall of text there!

Have you ever looked at the curriculum for accounting, law (which is a graduate level degree), engineering or buisness? Silly question, it's obvious you haven't. Well, maybe law school is all law classes, but all undergrad majors have requirements for courses in other disciplines than their major.

Hate to say it, but you're a snob. I have to say, before I had my kids, I didn't know too many people who didn't have college degrees, other than the LPNs, CNAs and clerks that I worked with. Once I had kids, I met a lot of other moms who hadn't gone to college and/or hadn't finished (mostly the latter). One of my close friends only went 1/2 semester.

True, but I have been asked for a transcript on occasion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Almost but I'd change that to be for those who can handle college. Not everyone can regardless of current social opinion. Others should go to trade or tech school.

And yes I'm now of the opinion that college or tech school is important enough to our country that it should be provided just as high school is now -- but only for those who can make productive use of the education or trade.
Who do you think should decide which kids go where?
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Old 08-25-2017, 03:11 PM
 
4,320 posts, read 2,055,114 times
Reputation: 10480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
...
Who do you think should decide which kids go where?
Why their performance in a school and demonstrated aptitude should determine which path is funded for them. They can always choose and fund their own college or trade school. But the ones who get the ride should be the ones who can pay it forward by their performance.

In every other field opportunities are based on performance and potential. Why is education different?
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