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Old 09-22-2017, 04:10 AM
 
46 posts, read 31,173 times
Reputation: 81

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Go back to your own post about what you tell the teacher and principal. That in itself is bullying.

Wrong I am discussing my child's education with the teacher. Because I challenge a teacher to prove something or compromise isn't bullying.


Hurt feelings don't = bullying


I used to teach adults, I perceived that they were cheating regularly. After doing the job for a few months I came up with a method of dealing with it.


Before each test I would pull out a desk and set it on the stage in front of the classroom.


I then would say, I am paranoid and jump to conclusions. If I look over and see your head tilted towards your neighbor I am going to assume you may be cheating. Now I could be wrong, there are perfectly good explanations of why it may appear that you are staring at your neighbors paper.


* You are having a petite mal seizure
* You have turrets and are in the middle of a tic
* You suffer from a equilibrium disorder and can't fully control your upper body.
* Other funny things that came to my mind


Just to be on the safe side though I am going to take your test and place it at this desk. You can either sit here and take your test or go up stairs to room X and explain it to the Dean.


Problem solved a few students went up stairs and a few sat in front of the class for the remainder of the test.
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Old 09-22-2017, 04:20 AM
 
46 posts, read 31,173 times
Reputation: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
You think wrestling and karate are skills needed to counter cheating?!?!?!

Ew.
No there are other ways as well. However the ability to strike fear into someone is much faster.


One of my Philosophy Professors Dr. O; said it best: This class is logic and reasoning it is designed to help you have logical and intelligent conversation with people who are capable of critical thinking. This class is best taken in conjunction with a good martial arts program because the other 90% of people you encounter will only understand being punched in the face.


If I am taking a test and you are cheating off of me I am not going to stop in the middle of the test and have a philosophical conversation with you about why you are only hurting yourself. I am either going to get up and move to another desk. (I have done this and when the teacher asked what are you doing I said "moving because X won't quit looking at my paper.") Or you can use my earlier stated method either work just fine.
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Old 09-22-2017, 04:22 AM
 
46 posts, read 31,173 times
Reputation: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I don't know about your school system, but in the huge system where I was a principal, this would have gone nowhere. The teacher is the adult in the classroom.
Your right and your logic is adults never lie right?
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Old 09-22-2017, 04:25 AM
 
46 posts, read 31,173 times
Reputation: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
It isn't a question of assuming that the teacher is always right. The teacher is the adult in the classroom. Without information to the contrary, it generally is legally and practically assumed that the teacher fulfills their legal responsibilities.

Teachers are sometimes wrong. As a principal, there were times I sided with students and reprimanded teachers. But I would say that well over 90% of the time the teacher is fulfilling his/her responsibility properly.

The world is not run by children. And shouldn't be. Even wonderful children lie in certain situations.
I completely agree; that's why I said ask questions and find out the truth.


You can better believe if it were true my consequences would seem draconian compared to that zero.
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Old 09-22-2017, 04:45 AM
 
46 posts, read 31,173 times
Reputation: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
Doesn't matter what you or I think, federal laws will not allow a teacher or other school official to discuss a student with anyone not employed in the district other than the child's parents.

Sigh....... They usually don't copy the entire test off another student. They may have only copied one answer.

I would have a very hard time not doing a happy dance at this point if I thought you could actually accomplish this. However, no principal I ever worked with would have foisted my new problem family on a different teacher unless I was cursed with an overabundance of them. Sadly, you would remain my burden to bear.

I already explained in an earlier post that when I called the parent I always offered to either give the child a zero or have the child retake the exam after school, and would explain to them that while the choice was up to the parent my preference would be for them to take the exam. Giving a zero defeats my whole purpose in giving exams, I can't assess whether they learned the material if it isn't graded. Contrary to what too many believe the purpose of going to school is not to get grades but to learn. I spent a lot of time creating my tests and every question tested a particular concept. So, I didn't give different versions, nor I didn't dock them any points.


Good for your son for being so bright. He may not have a reason to cheat but adorable little Caitlin Cheerleader or Bubba the Bruiser might and he is exactly who they want to cheat off. Interestingly enough most really, really bright boys are more susceptible to the charms of cute little Caitlin than physical threats from Badboy Bubba. Your brilliant boy might tell me about Bubba beforehand and let me take care of the issue but not Caitlin.

You actually haven't been reasonable but okay. Do you really think the superintendent is going to get all bent out of shape over a child who got one zero in a cheating situation? They may pay you lip service but they aren't going to punish the teacher over it. At most, they may try to convince the teacher to drop the test. You may not be aware of it but in about half the states it is against the law for a school administrator to force a teacher to change a grade or to take disciplinary action over a student's grade unless it is a pervasive pattern.

No lawyer would take you case. Neither you or child have suffered real damages. A zero in elementary or middle school is of no consequence.

I have never felt the desire to retaliate against the child of a whack-a-doodle or over-the-top reactionary parent, mostly I just felt sorry for them. I have had kids apologize to me for their parent's behavior before, it broke my heart.

Me any you would never have an issue then. All I care about is the zero, depending on the interaction and my perception that you would target my child I would then pull him to another class or not.


You are making assumptions about the lawyer thing. I am personal friends with two lawyers, my god father had a law firm, and his son is a lawyer there as well.


Our family Lawyer Mr. S is our family lawyer and his father was my fathers lawyer.


I could for sure call two people who would file a case Monday morning if I asked them too.


The last time Mr. W represented me he charged me lunch.
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Old 09-22-2017, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,318,490 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermex View Post
Wrong I am discussing my child's education with the teacher. Because I challenge a teacher to prove something or compromise isn't bullying.


Hurt feelings don't = bullying


I used to teach adults, I perceived that they were cheating regularly. After doing the job for a few months I came up with a method of dealing with it.


Before each test I would pull out a desk and set it on the stage in front of the classroom.


I then would say, I am paranoid and jump to conclusions. If I look over and see your head tilted towards your neighbor I am going to assume you may be cheating. Now I could be wrong, there are perfectly good explanations of why it may appear that you are staring at your neighbors paper.


* You are having a petite mal seizure
* You have turrets and are in the middle of a tic
* You suffer from a equilibrium disorder and can't fully control your upper body.
* Other funny things that came to my mind


Just to be on the safe side though I am going to take your test and place it at this desk. You can either sit here and take your test or go up stairs to room X and explain it to the Dean.


Problem solved a few students went up stairs and a few sat in front of the class for the remainder of the test.
Depends on how you "challenge". So far, you've talked about wrestling, karate, the "need to strike fear" and lawyers. It doesn't matter if your family has a dozen lawyers in it, or if you're friends with ten lawyers. All of these are bullying.

Perhaps the teacher noted some of those behaviors in the other child, and "enabling" behavior in the OP's child.
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Old 09-22-2017, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Plano, TX
995 posts, read 2,442,371 times
Reputation: 1115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
So, OP, what happened at your meeting with the teacher today?
I never had a meeting with the teacher. The teacher didn't respond to my email.

My daughter did, however, talk to the principal herself. I left her in the front of the school before I went back home to get her younger sister ready for school (I stated that it wasn't fair to her sister to have to lose sleep over her issues at school). The principal unlocked the doors to the school. My daughter talked to the principal and waited in his office because she didn't know the logistics of detention. The teacher apparently came and got my daughter, signed her out of detention and gave her 100, and told her she needed to go to morning tutorials. As I wasn't there, I don't know all the details.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
It's going to be a long three years for her in middle school if every issue with a teacher is handled by a request to change teachers.
I know cheating is common, and my daughter (well, daughters) will both be cheating targets, and sometimes people are judged guilty until proven innocent, but I have never gotten a "0" for somebody trying to copy off of me. Hopefully, my daughter learns an unfair lesson about life, but I think it's prudent and common sense to try to improve the situation. Also, there's is a time and place to pick your battles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I agree. Probably better to home school.
Academically she would learn a lot more. However, she is learning lessons about life, humanity, and society that I would have never thought to teach her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueherons View Post
If your daughter didn't do anything wrong, why would she want to move on to another class?

Edited to add, I'm not saying your daughter is guilty of cheating at all.
She doesn't think she'll be treated fairly if she's judged guilty until proven innocent.

My daughter also has previously said the following things about the teacher:
(a) the teacher is frequently making mistakes and the students have to correct her
(b) the teacher needs a calculator to check her own work
(c) my daughter has trouble understanding the teacher's English
(d) the teacher handwriting is hard to read, and the other teacher writes more neatly

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueherons View Post
In my experience, it is rare that the person that has the 'good' exam doesn't know when someone else is cheating off them. It is too easy to cover your exam so no one else can see it. It is almost hard to keep it open so others can see off it.

I'm certainly not saying your daughter was in on this but I doubt seriously that she was clueless.
We are talking about an elementary school age kid in middle school. She is very cognizant of cheating, but she is focused on doing her work, and not looking out for the rampant cheating that is occurring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Again, it depends on the district. In my school district, 6th grade was very high stakes, since it determined who was in honors classes. It was nearly impossible to get into honors and/or AP classes in high school if you weren't in honors classes in 7th grade, based on your grades from 6th grade.
The grade doesn't count now, but next year when she's most likely in Algebra as a 7th grader, the grade will count. High school classes taken in middle school count to the high school GPA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Very sorry to hear that this happened to your daughter. I've posted in the past (here and on other forums) that I was very frequently falsely accused of things when I was in school. The worst parts of being falsely accused are that you are completely powerless, nobody ever believes that you are innocent, and claiming innocence was often interpreted as insubordination. I am glad that you are sticking up for your daughter. Unfortunately, my parents always sided with the teacher and never helped me, even though I was frequently put in positions that somebody my then age was not equipped to handle.

...

What I think is going on here is that many teachers dislike high achieving students who are ahead of the curriculum. That was a problem for myself when I was in a school, and I see it being a problem for your daughter. Since your daughter is a grade ahead of the other students and is noticeably smaller and younger than the other students, that makes things even tougher for her. I know that many posters will say that what I am posting is not true. But unless you were a high achieving student who experienced this, such as myself or your daughter, it is difficult to relate to. And, I'm not saying that all teachers are unfair to high achieving students, just some of them. So a teacher who posts that he/she is fair to high achieving students does nothing to help myself or your daughter, and does nothing to negate the experiences that I had and your daughter is having.

...
Thank you for your thoughtful advice based on your past experiences. I have taken out some of your previous message for the sake of brevity, but I will definitely convey the message about high-achieving students. I know there is a lot of unfairness in the world and I teach my children that, I try to get them to focus on the factors under their control and influence. Working hard and being proactive definitely, in general, leads to high achievement whether it is in academics or other endeavors, like sports.
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,318,490 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by compSciGuy View Post
I never had a meeting with the teacher. The teacher didn't respond to my email.

OK. Interesting.

My daughter did, however, talk to the principal herself. I left her in the front of the school before I went back home to get her younger sister ready for school (I stated that it wasn't fair to her sister to have to lose sleep over her issues at school). The principal unlocked the doors to the school. My daughter talked to the principal and waited in his office because she didn't know the logistics of detention. The teacher apparently came and got my daughter, signed her out of detention and gave her 100, and told her she needed to go to morning tutorials. As I wasn't there, I don't know all the details.

What does "gave her 100" mean?

I know cheating is common, and my daughter (well, daughters) will both be cheating targets, and sometimes people are judged guilty until proven innocent, but I have never gotten a "0" for somebody trying to copy off of me. Hopefully, my daughter learns an unfair lesson about life, but I think it's prudent and common sense to try to improve the situation. Also, there's is a time and place to pick your battles.

Actually, that happened to one of my daughters, in high school. She didn't tell me about it until much later.

Academically she would learn a lot more. However, she is learning lessons about life, humanity, and society that I would have never thought to teach her.

She doesn't think she'll be treated fairly if she's judged guilty until proven innocent.

My daughter also has previously said the following things about the teacher:
(a) the teacher is frequently making mistakes and the students have to correct her
(b) the teacher needs a calculator to check her own work
(c) my daughter has trouble understanding the teacher's English
(d) the teacher handwriting is hard to read, and the other teacher writes more neatly


More like you think that, so it seems.
(a) and (b) may be concerning, but (c) and especially (d) are picky.


We are talking about an elementary school age kid in middle school. She is very cognizant of cheating, but she is focused on doing her work, and not looking out for the rampant cheating that is occurring.

Is she in middle school or elementary? I'm confused.

The grade doesn't count now, but next year when she's most likely in Algebra as a 7th grader, the grade will count. High school classes taken in middle school count to the high school GPA.


Are you sure? That's not how it was in my kids' school.

Thank you for your thoughtful advice based on your past experiences. I have taken out some of your previous message for the sake of brevity, but I will definitely convey the message about high-achieving students. I know there is a lot of unfairness in the world and I teach my children that, I try to get them to focus on the factors under their control and influence. Working hard and being proactive definitely, in general, leads to high achievement whether it is in academics or other endeavors, like sports.
OMG! This guy has a history of posting all sorts of "poor me" stuff here. Take it with a grain of salt.

(Mine in blue.)
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Old 09-22-2017, 09:09 AM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,653,495 times
Reputation: 20851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nov3 View Post
WOW....just WOW~!

Bias much?

I support this OP and her efforts, more parents need to be pro-active in the childs' schooling. I'm glad the daughter openly conveyed this allegation. Ohh wait...i forgot...kids are fibbers and should not be believed.....
How is that bias?

A child is asked if they did something against the rules. A child who did break the rules has a reason to lie, i.e to avoid punishment. A child who did not has no reason to lie. But you cannot determine which one is lying and which is not just by asking the question.

Meanwhile, the teacher has no reason to lie. Dealing with the parents, principal and disciplinary committee, filling out the paperwork, endless emails, etc. is all impetus for a teacher to look the other way (as many do). They literally have no benefit to lying about a pupil what so ever and in fact have reason to avoid writing students up in the first place.

If it was a students word against a teachers for something the teacher has a reason to lie about than it would be a different story, which is exactly why it is not bias.
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Old 09-22-2017, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Lawrenceville, Pittsburgh
2,109 posts, read 2,147,975 times
Reputation: 1845
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
This was a common teacher tactic when I was in school -- punish the person being cheated off along with the cheater. Didn't matter if you were totally innocent, it was "punish them all and let God sort them out" philosophy combined with "they probably did something they should be punished for anyway so it evens out."


Lord, I hated school.
This happened to me in high school physics class. Actually, it was worse than that. A good friend and I both got perfect scores on a quiz (calc-based, don't remember what it was). The teacher put our papers side by side, scored it by writing half on one paper and half on the other, and said we get 50% credit each for working together. We failed. I was declared academically ineligible for hockey that week.

That taught us essentially nothing...
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