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Old 10-02-2017, 10:52 AM
 
35,508 posts, read 17,760,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarianRavenwood View Post
The job of a parent is not to fix all the problems their kid may encounter--it's to prepare their kids to fix the problems themselves. Giving advice is another matter. Parents never stop being parents in that regard.

But complaining to the school about a bad professor? At best, they will only be rebuffed since legally college students are adults. A person can only speak/act on behalf of an adult if there is a power of attorney in place and the person is incapacitated (yes, there is a form that some schools use to allow parents to see grades, but it's just the grades, not everything else).
The problem here, is that college students aren't treated like adults at all. They're treated by the university as children with very little right to their say.

Can you imagine, as an adult, being told where to live and that you will in fact have a roommate. You can choose who that is or we'll assign one to you hope you like him.

And oh by the way, here's your boss. Sorry you can't understand a word he is saying, you're responsible for following his direction.

??? Can you imagine putting UP with that as an adult?

(Interestingly, colleges that require entering freshmen to live on campus will wave that requirement for students over 25 because . . . yeah. Forget it, we're not doing that, said the adults).

 
Old 10-02-2017, 10:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I think y'all are making the assumption that whatever happens, is always the students fault. Which is not true. I've tried to make it clear I'm not talking about lack of studying or lack of trying. I'm talking things that only the professor and college can fix. And we all know that the college will support the professor regardless. Once they get tenure, they're untouchable regardless of how poor their performance. Had one when I went through that was so bad the entire class staged a walk out and went to the dean. You know the dean's answer? "Yes, we know how bad he is, but he has tenure so there's nothing we can do about it."


If you paid $40K for a car that turned out to be a lemon, would you say "well, life's not fair, guess I'll have to accept it" or would you be raising holy heck over it? That's my point for this -- we let colleges off the hook on too many things because "students need to deal with it" or "they need to learn life's not fair" or similar platitudes that do nothing to fix the underlying problem. Poor performance isn't acceptable in other walks of life -- why is it acceptable in education?
I think that the parents' attitude in the past that their child is in college to get a degree and eventually a job, not an education, is what allowed our college system to reach the point that it has reached. Now that college is more expensive than ever, and is no longer a guarantee at a job, people, rightfully, feel that they at least deserve a quality education for what they are paying. Yes, it should be on the student, not the parents, to fight for a quality education. However, with professors and disciplinary systems that abuse their power, it's often easier for a student to just accept things than to fight for what is right.
 
Old 10-02-2017, 10:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe from dayton View Post
OP: The dean gave you a cop-out answer. Tenured profs can be fired for cause, and incompetence or negligence is cause. If you get an answer like that, you go to the pres. and board of trustees. That said, the vast majority of profs are competent, and the parent is almost never in a position to judge a prof's ability.
Even if, in theory, tenured professors can be fired for cause, if the administration is unwilling to go through the procedure to fire such a professor, then it is de facto iron-clad job description. And, I've been given the exact same response that TNFF has been given (as a student, not as a parent).
 
Old 10-02-2017, 11:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_hug99 View Post
Exactly. I had a friend in college who slipped on a very icy sidewalk. The school had received several inches of snow, the sidewalks weren't cleared, the sidewalk was VERY icy, and the professor had an absence clause in the syllabus stating that any more than three absences in a semester would mean a failing grade. Knowing her grade was on the line, she had to go to class. She tore her rotator cuff which meant she wasn't allowed to play her clarinet or piano (music education major). The school tried to fail her and a lot of nastiness ensued when she tried to demonstrate that her injuries were the fault of the school not clearing the sidewalks.

So the school tried to say that she didn't "have to go to class." Luckily she had the syllabus with the absence clause. I don't know all of the details of what happened, but now, if there is snow, the school will close down and cancel classes, this never happened in the past.

You can bet that the parents were advocates for their child, along with the lawyer they hired.
In that case, it was right for the parent to get involved, since the student could not have afforded a lawyer herself.
 
Old 10-02-2017, 11:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I know perfectly well what you are talking about, but the problem is bolded.
Had similar problem when my kid was in college. He was in tech field, but his English Writing class ( or whatever) teacher was a plain nuisance. What mattered to HER was the "headers and liners" - the particular format she insisted the home works should be done. And if it was not done the perfect way she wanted, she was greatly downgrading otherwise good essay. Things like that. He was wasting his valuable time on nonsense like that, instead of paying more attention to tech. classes that REALLY mattered.
At the end, he had to retake that class.
I HAD to complain to the dean about all this nonsence, but you can imagine how it ended.

Luckily enough, he had a different teacher next semester, so he passed that English class with no problem.
Did the professor explain the format that she wanted the papers in? I had an experience similar to that. I had an engineering class with a TA who not only knew nothing about the English language, but he also knew nothing about the subject matter, and was very open about that. For our first lab report, he graded it solely on form (things like margins, indenting, fonts, where to label figures, etc), ignoring the content (since he knew nothing about the content). Since he had never told us what format he wanted, everybody in the class got a failing grade on that lab report! Many students complained to the professor, who just said "Life isn't fair". However, after that first report, the TA agreed that for the rest of the semester, he would give every student a random grade on each lab report, between 90 and 95, regardless of what we hand in. And said that the only condition be that we agree not to question why we received a 90 when another student received a 95. Also, the lowest grade (obviously the first lab report) was dropped. Obviously, everybody agreed to that deal, knowing what the alternative was.


On the other hand, if the professor did explain what form she wanted, it should have been easy enough to comply, even if you did not agree with it. Fair or not, we sometimes have to comply with rules that we don't agree with. The big question is, whether or not those rules were properly communicated or not.
 
Old 10-02-2017, 11:15 AM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,999,010 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Those anonymous end of semester surveys can make or break a teacher, regardless of tenure.

When I was in college, when we'd fill out those surveys, professors would always remind us that they had tenure, that they could not be fired no matter what, and that what scores we give them have absolutely no effect.
 
Old 10-02-2017, 11:20 AM
 
35,508 posts, read 17,760,821 times
Reputation: 50491
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
When I was in college, when we'd fill out those surveys, professors would always remind us that they had tenure, that they could not be fired no matter what, and that what scores we give them have absolutely no effect.
Yeah, but now opinions are published online, on sites like "rate my teacher". It makes a difference. If there is a class taught by many professors - so the student has a choice - and one of them is a jerk and unpredictable, that will come out on rate my teacher and no one will sign up for that class.

Interestingly, I've found the students tend to be very fair with their ratings - "this teacher is really hard but you learn a lot", "this teacher is friendly and nice but the assignments are unclear", etc.
 
Old 10-02-2017, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,355,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
Yeah, but now opinions are published online, on sites like "rate my teacher". It makes a difference. If there is a class taught by many professors - so the student has a choice - and one of them is a jerk and unpredictable, that will come out on rate my teacher and no one will sign up for that class.

Interestingly, I've found the students tend to be very fair with their ratings - "this teacher is really hard but you learn a lot", "this teacher is friendly and nice but the assignments are unclear", etc.
Oh, come on! I've heard teachers complain that their evaluations depend on this online gossip, and some of it really is off-base.

Interestingly also, my daughter just Saturday married a guy she met while he was a TA in electrical engineering at the U of CO. One time they were at a party held by one of her friends, and it turned out that her friend's date had had my SIL for a TA and hated him b/c he thought SIL was a hard-a**. Actually, this guy is very sweet, and I can't imagine him being a bad teacher or mean to his students. I can really, really imagine him expecting his students to actually do their work!
 
Old 10-02-2017, 11:43 AM
 
Location: The Midwest
2,966 posts, read 3,903,010 times
Reputation: 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
The problem here, is that college students aren't treated like adults at all. They're treated by the university as children with very little right to their say.

Can you imagine, as an adult, being told where to live and that you will in fact have a roommate. You can choose who that is or we'll assign one to you hope you like him.

And oh by the way, here's your boss. Sorry you can't understand a word he is saying, you're responsible for following his direction.

??? Can you imagine putting UP with that as an adult?

(Interestingly, colleges that require entering freshmen to live on campus will wave that requirement for students over 25 because . . . yeah. Forget it, we're not doing that, said the adults).
Colleges generally don't do things "just because" - the residential system has long been associated with higher levels of student satisfaction, retention rates, etc. You know, science.

Attending a residential university is a choice. No one is forcing anyone to live with a roommate or in a dorm, given that students elect where to attend school. IF a student does not want to live with a roommate or be told where to live, they should have considered that BEFORE choosing to attend a school where they must do that.
 
Old 10-02-2017, 11:46 AM
 
Location: The Midwest
2,966 posts, read 3,903,010 times
Reputation: 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Oh, come on! I've heard teachers complain that their evaluations depend on this online gossip, and some of it really is off-base.

Interestingly also, my daughter just Saturday married a guy she met while he was a TA in electrical engineering at the U of CO. One time they were at a party held by one of her friends, and it turned out that her friend's date had had my SIL for a TA and hated him b/c he thought SIL was a hard-a**. Actually, this guy is very sweet, and I can't imagine him being a bad teacher or mean to his students. I can really, really imagine him expecting his students to actually do their work!
This is the crux of it, IMO. The OP, and some posters in this thread, have set up this strawman where the student is 100% right and the professor is 100% wrong. That's rarely how it goes, and in my experience as a student and now as the parent of students (college and HS), generally the students most dissatisfied or complaining about XYZ professor/teacher simply weren't willing to put in the work he or she required. And thus, resort to "it's not my fault I got a bad grade! The teacher was just soooo bad!!!!" excuse when the grade is not what they'd like.
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