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Apologies if the point was obscured. I thought it plain as day in real time. To wit: if anyone's family values are sound, they are not apt to collapse merely due to exposure to different ideas. Do you disagree?
Well, I agree with you.
One of the most important things I learned in college was how to think for myself, rather than to just immediately believe what other people said was the truth. I learned how to ask questions, evaluate sources of information, find multiple sources of information, compare and contrast what different sources were saying, and analyze factual data to determine my own opinions and values.
I had plenty of professors in college whose opinions I disagreed with, and met plenty of other students whose values were different than mine. Since college, I've also had tons of co-workers, bosses, friends, neighbors and family members who have had different opinions and values than I do.
I guess I'm just weird but I have never felt intimidated into changing my values, beliefs, and opinions just because someone else says I should, even if they put pressure on me to do so.
Reading the books is just part of the course work. The discourse, critique, and defense is a necessary part of a good program that a library card alone would not account for.
Getting the grade seemed to be more a matter of figuring out what the teacher wanted to hear and bringing up a different perspective just caused problems. A 'B' was sufficient for my purposes so I let it go at that.
Getting the grade seemed to be more a matter of figuring out what the teacher wanted to hear and bringing up a different perspective just caused problems. A 'B' was sufficient for my purposes so I let it go at that.
Who needs library cards with Project Gutenberg?
Sound more like a personal problem for you, your school and your degree.
I am a researcher. All the free ebooks in the world would not teach the same things you learn in an actual laboratory.
Oh, and anyone who wants to read peer reviewed research will need some,hint beyond project Gutenberg.
What the hell is a "conservative" college anyway??
Liberty University (founded by Jerry Falwell) and Bob Jones University are two examples that come to mind.
Now, not every religious affiliated school (i.e. Duke, Wake Forest, Notre Dame, etc.) affiliates with the political religious right, but these two certainly do.
Getting the grade seemed to be more a matter of figuring out what the teacher wanted to hear and bringing up a different perspective just caused problems. A 'B' was sufficient for my purposes so I let it go at that.
Who needs library cards with Project Gutenberg?
What college did you go to?
None of my professors - in either college or graduate school (I've attended three different universities) - was like this, and trust me, I disagreed with a lot of my teachers.
As long as I could make a cognizant case that was supported with research, facts and logic, I seemed to get good grades none the less (and I didn't settle for B's).
(Well, there was one professor who didn't like what I had to say about F. Scott Fitzgerald and gave me a "C" on a paper. But that had nothing to do with politics. )
As someone who spent 8 years + in college, the largest issue I see is the proliferation of degrees that will not provide students with a skill set that can provide them with good future employment opportunities. Does anyone believe spending 100k or more for a degree in Anthropology, which pays the average graduate a starting wage of 28k, is a great deal? How about film and photographic arts? Philosophy? The list goes on and on. While these are all interesting subjects, they in no way prepare a student for the real world. A few years back, my niece got a degree in Communications from a very good school. She incurred significant expenses that will dog her for years. Sadly, after graduation, she couldn't find a job that pays more than 30k.
This. I am 45 years old and have two degrees. I took out minimal loans (graduated with about $6K in loans) and worked my way through the rest. I busted my ass, but it was possible. What I think a lot of people of my generation and older don't understand is that's just not possible any more. According to Forbes, college averages $28,000 a year. And that's public, not private. Private college averages $59,000 a year. That's $100K for a degree, with anticipated increases of 6.5% per year. Pretty hard for an 18-19 year old kid to afford that and still be able to pay rent, etc. on the salary they can earn. It's not the same as it was when we were in school.
Agree. Biggest change is you can't work your way through with the typical part time summer job any more.
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Originally Posted by JimRom
Interesting topic of conversation.
I have mixed views about college myself. My daughters know that they will be going to college in order to get a "useful" degree. Nothing against Liberal Arts majors, and more power to them if they want to pursue Liberal Arts after they have their first degree. But let's face it, a Liberal Arts degree is useless in most fields today.
That being said, if my daughters weren't as intelligent as they are then they wouldn't be looking at college - they'd be looking at trade school or other vocational training. One of my big issues with college, in general, is that I've seen far too many people who never should have been there in the first place. They either weren't intellectually capable or they saw college as a way to live an extra 4 years on Mommy's and Daddy's dime.
While I want my children to go to college because it will give them opportunities that I didn't have, I also realize that there are thousands of really good jobs out there that don't require a college degree at all. This doesn't even take into account the jobs that do require a college degree but really shouldn't. I've seen entry-level data entry positions that were asking for a Bachelor's degree as a minimum qualification and paid less than what you could make painting houses. That's slightly ridiculous.
Then you have the social/political side of the argument. Whether it's true or not - and in many ways it is true - colleges are seen as a bastion of liberalism in America. A lot of conservatives - and even moderates - are unwilling to encourage their children to attend universities where they are going to be bombarded with liberal ideas and be the focus of negative attention from SJW professors if they try to stand by their beliefs. Therefore, they look for either conservative colleges or they encourage their children to find another route to success.
There are really very few "liberal" colleges. Most colleges and professors just don't care and you'll never know what their politics are. I did have one flaming commie as a history professor and he was quite clear in his views about the world and how history was on the side of communism. But other than him, really didn't see it. And the student body was a pretty good mix of all sides of the spectrum. I'd say most had good heads on their shoulders and could separate wheat from chaff. The ones that had the hardest time were those who attended very conservative private colleges the first couple of years. They had never had their beliefs challenged and so didn't know how to defend them.
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Originally Posted by SwedishViking
What I don't understand, and i'm saying this with a foreign perspective is;
How did you end up with more or less openly political universities?
If I'd try to pull some of that snowflake **** I see on youtube in one of my engineering classes the professor would probably laugh at me and kick me out...
Most aren't openly political. And yep, my physics professors would have done the same thing. Actually still do. (Daughter is attending the same college and some things, such as tough old professors) have not changed since I went.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psikeyhackr
Getting the grade seemed to be more a matter of figuring out what the teacher wanted to hear and bringing up a different perspective just caused problems. A 'B' was sufficient for my purposes so I let it go at that.
This is a different issue from political persuasion, but yes, I experienced the "tell them what they want to hear" quite often in college. More from the liberal arts professors than the physics and engineering ones. I suspect because liberal arts is more opinion based rather than on the cold equations.
As someone who spent 8 years + in college, the largest issue I see is the proliferation of degrees that will not provide students with a skill set that can provide them with good future employment opportunities. Does anyone believe spending 100k or more for a degree in Anthropology, which pays the average graduate a starting wage of 28k, is a great deal?
Actually, I have personal experience with just this question.
You see, my daughter doubled majored in studio art AND anthropology. I'm sure you think studio art is a useless liberal arts major too. Her courses taught her lots of useful job skills: how to write, how to solve problems, how to do research, how to work with other people, how to write a budget proposal, how to understand different perspectives.
She has done just fine for herself after college. She landed a job right after she graduated in marketing. Ten years later, she's a Director of Marketing pulling in over $100K.
Or, I could tell you about my son who majored in sociology. He's also making over $100K, but he's only been out of college for six years.
I could also tell you about many of my former students who attended liberal arts and science colleges (and yes, the liberal arts DO include sciences) who are all doing equally well. They've become doctors, lawyers, bankers, business managers, and, yes, even a few college professors.
But, in a sense, you're right. Their degree didn't get them a job.
The truth is NO college or degree guarantees anyone a job. YOU get you a job and then you work your butt off to be good at it.
By the way, for those disdaining liberal arts colleges, you do realize that the undergraduate schools at Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, and Brown are all liberal arts colleges, right?
Also, the "liberal arts" include subjects like mathematics, physics, biology, and chemistry. Liberal arts is not just about humanities and social sciences. Some liberal arts colleges even offer engineering (and all engineering schools include liberal arts courses in their curriculums).
Finally, the "liberal" in liberal arts does not mean the opposite of conservative. It is referring to a broad education in a wide range of subjects.
While I wouldn't be apt to ask a plumber about the intricacies of foreign policy, the point was over rampant populist attempts to undermine actual expertise in general, replacing it with baseless propaganda and emotionalism. Nothing good lies down that road.
Too bad. You might be surprised that people who are in trades are :gasp: interested and educated in subjects other than those they work in. Amazing huh?
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