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The best way to become an educated person (and that is what the poster should have said instead of “smart”) is to pursue a formal education course of study. For most areas that would include college, but it could include a trade.
Regardless, to be blunt, no, the trades are not what is meant by the term “intellectualism.” By definition, an intellectual uses their “intellect”, to pursue research, critical thinking, etc. It may not be mutually exclusive to trades people, but it shows a difference in vocation.
I a person just reads the books that constitutes a "Liberal Arts" education and does not take the courses, what will they be missing? A teacher paraphrasing the books? I do find it amusing that "Liberal Arts" people make such a big deal about Fahrenheit 451.
Burn those books! LOL
Well, for one, intelligent classroom discussion of those books. Exposure to people with different perspectives I wouldn't trade my college years for anything.
The best way to become an educated person (and that is what the poster should have said instead of “smart”) is to pursue a formal education course of study. For most areas that would include college, but it could include a trade.
Regardless, to be blunt, no, the trades are not what is meant by the term “intellectualism.” By definition, an intellectual uses their “intellect”, to pursue research, critical thinking, etc. It may not be mutually exclusive to trades people, but it shows a difference in vocation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25
I couldn't disagree more.
I also disagree. Had you said "The best way to become a formally educated person," I wouldn't. I am extremely well educated in several subjects, but I don't have a degree or a background in college. I do, however, enjoy learning and have an extensive collection of books, a library card, and several extremely intelligent and educated friends. I've probably received a better education simply doing research for freelance writing projects than many of my peers received by going to college.
There is no doubt of that, nor of the fact that the share of student costs at public universities has increased as the share of funding by the public has been cut and cut and cut by bedazzled so-called "fiscal conservatives.' At the same time, while the rate of increase in the gap between returns to education and returns to work has been about flat of late, the former has easily outpaced the latter for quite some time. There is not much debate about that.
Again, I'm not disagreeing that the costs of college haven't gone up; they have. But, public universities still provide good value in terms of the potential for increased earnings over one's lifetime.
Let's take a look at some actual data.
- Median INSTATE tuition for public universities in the U.S. is currently $9650 a year. That's sticker price.
- As I said, to really get a clear picture on possible return on investment, we have to look beyond sticker price and look at net price. Again, net price is the price a student/family pays minus grants and tax incentives. For the purpose of this discussion, it doesn't include student loans and work study as those aren't "Free" money.
- The median net price of INSTATE tuition for public universities in the U.S. is $3,770. (As an aside, back in 1990, the median net price was $2000 -- that is not adjusted for inflation).
So, allowing for annual increases, that means that tuition for a four year degree at an INSTATE public institution, on average, is around $18,000.
- The U.S. Federal Reserve Board estimates that a four year college graduate earns on average, $850,000 more in earnings over the course of their working life.
So, let's see. $850,000 - $18,000 = $832,000. Not a bad return on an $18,000 investment. Try to earn that by putting your money in a bank.
Of course, there are some important caveats:
- These are medians. Some public universities are more expensive, some are less expensive. Similarly, the net price is a median. Some families will pay more (including full tuition), others will pay less.
- These figures are for INSTATE tuition. Send your kid to a public university in another state and you'll be paying a lot more than you will if they attend a public in your home state, unless they get some sort of nifty scholarship.
- These figures are for tuition and fees only. They don't include living expenses (room/board in the dorm; and off campus apartment; living at home with mom and dad). They also don't include personal expenses or books. So, obviously, I'm cheating a bit by saying that your return on investment will be $832,000 a year. College costs involve more than just tuition -- even if your kid lives at home and commutes, there will be additional costs incurred.
- My cost-benefit analysis also assumes that the student will get their degree AND that they will do so in four years. If you drop out, you'll have a much smaller bump in your earnings. If you take longer than four years to graduate, you'll also have more costs AND you'll lose potential income for the extra years that you could have been working if you'd graduated sooner.
This part gets a little tricky because the average graduation rates for students attending public universities AND graduating in four years is lower for public universities overall than it is for private ones.
So, families have to factor that into their own cost benefit equation: are the chances good that my child will graduate in four years at this particular college.
- Finally, there's the intangible aspect of what every student will reap from their education. A student can attend a great college and only put the bare minimum in to earn passing grades. They'll get their degrees but they haven't taken full advantage of their education. They've just done the minimum to get the degree. Obviously, that's a lost opportunity cost that you will never be able to calculate accurately.
Anyhow, if anyone's interested, I can pull the data for Non-resident public and private colleges too. Or better yet, you can look at all of the data yourself here: https://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing
I worked my way through 5 years worth of college, over a 7-year period. But at least 95% of what I knew and the skills I had, came from outside my classes, with independent study and hands-on experience. I had started studying on my own, even before starting grade school.
Every penny I had, went into paying for my college and I had to squeeze a nickel so hard, that the buffalo would s***. During those college years, I met some nice women and had plenty of opportunity for hard exercise. But otherwise, I gained nothing from it, that ever affected me vocationally.
The job I got soon after my college years and another one a year later, had nothing to do with my college credits. Those hiring me said that the only reasons they had, was because they thought I could do the work. No employer ever asked me for a college transcript.
Even though I had 5.5 years of credit, my part-time enrollment didn't lead to any degree. But a decade later, I was invited to enter graduate school, as a graduate teaching fellow (TA), based on my three years as a volunteer instructor in a department. The University President approved it. Again, that resulted from my proven ability and not on whether or not I had a degree.
For the record, that graduate fellowship never happened, because during the preceding months, our state legislature chopped the budget for education so drastically, that the entire section of our department had to be eliminated and all its fellowships were cancelled. The large and successful undergraduate teacher-training program there, also had to be cancelled and about 30% of all state employees lost their jobs.
First of all, nothing of unique value is learned in college EXCEPT being able to stick it out to get the degree.
That is the reason a college degree offers better job opportunities, because you have proved you can wade through a ton of irrelevant crap and stick it out. This is key to being able to stick it out on the job where you will encounter similar mindless nonsense for years, until you have a real skill to offer your employer, at which point you will either be left alone, or have mastered the nonsense to the point you are eligible for promotion.
Second of all, there's no reason to spend a ton of money or accumulate a ton of debt to get that degree. You can live at home and attend a city or state university in commuting distance and with working part time during the school year and full time over the summer, you should be able to get a degree with $20,000 or less left to pay off on a 10 year college loan. Not a big deal.
You don't learn anything in college you can't learn on youtube. You are indoctrinated in college, and it doesn't pertain to politics or morals. It pertains to becoming a cog in the system's wheel.
I we're just seeing the pendulum swinging slowly back toward the center. It used to be that "only the rich" went to college and that poor kids were therefore locked out of certain professions.
Then we saw the rise of taxpayer-funded community colleges and government-backed student loans that allowed poor kids to go to college and earn degrees.
As college became less of an accomplishment it began being taken for granted by many. Lately we've seen kids of all economic backgrounds wasting their time and our tax money in college when they don't belong there.
So I also see the rise of anti-college sentiment, which is fine. My two kids are in college right now. My older son was not too keen on his classes midway thru his sophomore year. This was after he was awarded a 4-year full tuition scholarship. I told him to drop out and join the army (his mother was opposed) and essentially I called his bluff. The bottom line is, each person needs to find there own way. There is no one-size-fits-all path to success, and not everyone will achieve success no matter how much we encourage them to "stay in school".
The rise of federally funded student loans is part of the PROBLEM with college costs. By using the government to increase the number of students going in, the demand went up, colleges raised their rates per law of supply and demand (after all, federal funds = more money for them), college degrees became less valued (hence why administrative assistant positions now require an associates) and now college costs are going UP and are now at historically high levels.
None of my professors - in either college or graduate school (I've attended three different universities) - was like this, and trust me, I disagreed with a lot of my teachers.
As long as I could make a cognizant case that was supported with research, facts and logic, I seemed to get good grades none the less (and I didn't settle for B's).
(Well, there was one professor who didn't like what I had to say about F. Scott Fitzgerald and gave me a "C" on a paper. But that had nothing to do with politics. )
Yeah, I never had a professor who was concerned with my stances, positions, and hypotheses. Their focus was on my ability to support my stances, positions, and hypotheses, not on whether or not they were ideologically aligned with their own thoughts.
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