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I don't think things are different today. I lived at home with a single Mom who worked as a secretary and worked my way through college with a few student loans. When I graduated from college I was living on my own and was eligible for the draft and couldn't get hired. I worked for minimum wage at a liquor store 25 hours a week and lived in a one room apartment with a mattress on the floor and a hot plate and refrigerator for a kitchen. I went back to school on student loans for a law degree but quit after the first year. Back to the part time job at the liquor store. I finally relocated to NYC and got a night shift job under the premise I was going to attend law school during the day, but I didn't. Eventually I moved to the day shift, got marrried and started a family. At the age of 43 I finally got a job I really loved and worked at it until I retired. I had a lot of luck, but I was also aggressive about pursuing a paycheck and sticking with it for decades. From what I can see with my children and grandkids, everyone has the same opportunities as I had, if they are willing to fight and work for it. I know the college degree paid off for me and everyone in my family who got one did better than those who didn't. When I was a kid my aunt was the only one in the family with a degree, and she had a better job, working for the government, than anyone else in the family. The degree eventually opened doors for me that would have been closed without it. People who have a flair for owning their own business or have a really good trade may do fine without it, maybe way better than I did financially, but for me those weren't things I could do.
I agree that a lot is the same but if you look at the ratio of college costs to minimum wage, it is much worse now. I was able to leave undergrad with negligible debt. 15 years later I had a higher paying job for grad school and a partial fellowship but I still had to take on more debt. The price is simply way higher compared to wages.
That said I do think it is worth If if you have a plan and avail yourself of the subsidized options. I would never recommend my kids to go to private school! Community college and public four years will cost them twice what it cost me but it is still a fraction of the Ivy League price.
Whether trades are "in-demand" and well-paying depends on what we are defining as "trades."
Someone earlier mentioned Vet Techs. That is a "trade" in the literal definition. My community college has a successful Vet Tech program; becoming certified requires an Associate's degree. A Vet Tech can expect to make between 28 and 35k when they start, maybe more in certain areas, but they top out fairly low. You'll never make more than maybe 55-60k as a Vet Tech. They are relatively in-demand right now with a 20% increase expected by BLS, more in certain states.
This is not what I would define as a "forever career," though. That is a job that's much better than minimum wage, and the payoff is pretty good for 2 years of community college tuition (total cost maybe $8-12k) HOWEVER, it should be seen as either a temporary situation or a stepping stone to a better job in the veterinary or medical field.
Whether trades are "in-demand" and well-paying depends on what we are defining as "trades."
Someone earlier mentioned Vet Techs. That is a "trade" in the literal definition. My community college has a successful Vet Tech program; becoming certified requires an Associate's degree. A Vet Tech can expect to make between 28 and 35k when they start, maybe more in certain areas, but they top out fairly low. You'll never make more than maybe 55-60k as a Vet Tech. They are relatively in-demand right now with a 20% increase expected by BLS, more in certain states.
This is not what I would define as a "forever career," though. That is a job that's much better than minimum wage, and the payoff is pretty good for 2 years of community college tuition (total cost maybe $8-12k) HOWEVER, it should be seen as either a temporary situation or a stepping stone to a better job in the veterinary or medical field.
Yes. The problem is that people get comfortable... until they aren’t. Then they feel stuck with other expenses like debt, kids etc.
Totally agree. In the 49 years since I graduated from college everything has gone up in price about 10x.
But the minimum wage has only gone up a little more than 3x. People talk about the wealth divide but there it is. Top CEO salaries have probably gone up 50x or more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neerwhal
I agree that a lot is the same but if you look at the ratio of college costs to minimum wage, it is much worse now. I was able to leave undergrad with negligible debt. 15 years later I had a higher paying job for grad school and a partial fellowship but I still had to take on more debt. The price is simply way higher compared to wages.
That said I do think it is worth If if you have a plan and avail yourself of the subsidized options. I would never recommend my kids to go to private school! Community college and public four years will cost them twice what it cost me but it is still a fraction of the Ivy League price.
I'm a big proponent of University/College for those it suits. With that said, the argument of university being a much better investment from a financial perspective is somewhat flawed. Firstly, it assumes that the only investment (financially) is $30,000 - the amount of debt. The total cost is more than that, but this is a minor point compared to the next one.
The big flaw in the data comes from comparing the life time earning for those with degrees to the aggregate of those who do not have degrees. There are several problems with this:
- those without degrees include a number of groups - those who enter a trade, those who work in the service industry, those who are chronically under or unemployed, entrepreneurs and much more. Three of those categories drag down the 'average' for the rest.
- life time earnings in itself is a problem because it refers to data from the past. The world is changing now, in some sectors it is changing quite rapidly. Many previously skilled jobs requiring college or university are being outsourced overseas, something that is much harder to do currently for trades that require feet on the ground locally although future automation may become a problem. Additionally, what worked for the baby boomers (the most recent group for whom we have life long statistics) won't work for current generations in the same way both for the reasons already stated as well as because the demographics/opportunities are not the same as for the post war generation.
- The college cohort also has subdivisions within it. You have ivy league degrees that provide a much larger earning potential no matter what degree you take (with higher investment required admittedly) as well as low prestige majors from low prestige colleges that do not return the investment all that well (social work from a community college for example).
None of what I have added to this discussion should be used to discourage someone from pursuing college or their 'dream', but as a reality check if all you are looking at is the financial return on choices made. Trades require almost no investment at all (most of them having four six week class room stints over four years) and thus are a much better overall return on the money invested. Even low prestige/earning degrees aren't a bad idea - life is a journey and often the road traveled is more important than the destination.
Whether trades are "in-demand" and well-paying depends on what we are defining as "trades."
Someone earlier mentioned Vet Techs. That is a "trade" in the literal definition. My community college has a successful Vet Tech program; becoming certified requires an Associate's degree. A Vet Tech can expect to make between 28 and 35k when they start, maybe more in certain areas, but they top out fairly low. You'll never make more than maybe 55-60k as a Vet Tech. They are relatively in-demand right now with a 20% increase expected by BLS, more in certain states.
This is not what I would define as a "forever career," though. That is a job that's much better than minimum wage, and the payoff is pretty good for 2 years of community college tuition (total cost maybe $8-12k) HOWEVER, it should be seen as either a temporary situation or a stepping stone to a better job in the veterinary or medical field.
In our area vet techs are minimum wage to $10 an hour and working 31 hours a week. There are very few jobs that are not desperate for indicates, but vet tech is one of them. It seems that everyone who does nto get a four year degree wants to be a vet tech.
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,630 posts, read 57,639,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobspez
Totally agree. In the 49 years since I graduated from college everything has gone up in price about 10x.
But the minimum wage has only gone up a little more than 3x. People talk about the wealth divide but there it is. Top CEO salaries have probably gone up 50x or more.
My first FT job was $1.35/ hr
Today our state minimum wage is $11.00 / hr (one city within the state has $15/hr minimum)
As you mention, most stuff is up about 10x (vehicles, houses, clothes (not food or TV's)...) Phone bill is up ~ 50x.
CEO's... CEO Pay Has Grown 90 Times Faster than Typical Worker Pay Since 1978 | Economic Policy Institute
An evil witch of a CEO ruined our previously great company and stole mine and 300,000 other's pensions, accrued Sick leave, and HC (I only spent 40 yrs service, she made it 5 yrs till we paid her $15m to LEAVE!!!)
College worth it???
Not sure... I preferred my hourly income (+ OT) to my professional income (free OT)
Best bet... find a way to make NON-Wage-Income. The sooner the better.
College can help, but is NOT necessary (as is evidenced by some of the most "Wealthy" success stories.)
Work / career = <1/2 of my accrued wealth. I could have done just fine w/o college. But I really like school! and learning in general (college is not required... just go find a niche career / income pursuit and LEARN it!) There are so many excellent options today.
Certainly consider the COST and the LOST opportunity costs of college. (lost wages while hanging around a traditional college.)
Whether college / apprentice / self employed ... we all pay the price one way or the other. (Unless a trust find baby)
Last edited by StealthRabbit; 11-08-2017 at 12:06 AM..
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