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Most teachers everywhere are required to put in a lot of extra hours for which they are not paid if they want to do a decent job.
I agree -- but note "extra hours" is one of the attributes of being a professional. Professionals are paid to do the job, not to work specific hours. Professionals do not think in terms of "working extra hours;" professionals think in terms of "doing a superior job."
Professionals typically work 10+ hours/day at the office M-F, and perhaps another hour or two per day working from home late in the evening. Then professionals work another 10-ish or so hours on the weekend. But then again, there are times when professionals must really burn the midnight oil, working as long and as hard as necessary -- all nighters.
Here's an anecdote from early in my career: I was working for a high-end consulting company straight out of grad school, and had been on a project that started to wind down. The VP for whom I worked told me to go talk to another VP to see if I could pitch in on his project in my "spare time."
Me: "VP#2, my current project is winding down, and I can pitch in on your project; However, VP#1 still needs me at least 4 days/week on my current project."
VP#2: "Great! That gives us 3 days/week to play with!"
He was not kidding.
A common refrain of professionals, in response to more assignments, is "My plate is full," to which the usual response is "put it on your salad plate."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens
Whether teachers are respected as professionals seems to vary widely from district to district.
They should be respected as professionals, and teachers should be treated as professionals, including access to the resources to achieve their objectives - but then again, professionals do not whine about "...extra hours for which they are not paid." Professionals do not go on strike. Professionals do not have an "hourly employee" mentality.
And working conditions for professionals should not be as you describe - teachers and principals should have access to the resources they need to do their job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens
Pretty much everywhere they also have to deal with the constant threat of layoffs.
All professionals worry about layoffs and termination for any reason. (Well, any legal reason - business conditions, poor department performance, sale of divisions, mergers and elimination of duplicate positions, exiting lines of business, bankruptcy, etc.)
I agree -- but note "extra hours" is one of the attributes of being a professional. Professionals are paid to do the job, not to work specific hours. Professionals do not think in terms of "working extra hours;" professionals think in terms of "doing a superior job."
Professionals typically work 10+ hours/day at the office M-F, and perhaps another hour or two per day working from home late in the evening. Then professionals work another 10-ish or so hours on the weekend. But then again, there are times when professionals must really burn the midnight oil, working as long and as hard as necessary -- all nighters.
Here's an anecdote from early in my career: I was working for a high-end consulting company straight out of grad school, and had been on a project that started to wind down. The VP for whom I worked told me to go talk to another VP to see if I could pitch in on his project in my "spare time."
Me: "VP#2, my current project is winding down, and I can pitch in on your project; However, VP#1 still needs me at least 4 days/week on my current project."
VP#2: "Great! That gives us 3 days/week to play with!"
He was not kidding.
A common refrain of professionals, in response to more assignments, is "My plate is full," to which the usual response is "put it on your salad plate."
They should be respected as professionals, and teachers should be treated as professionals, including access to the resources to achieve their objectives - but then again, professionals do not whine about "...extra hours for which they are not paid." Professionals do not go on strike. Professionals do not have an "hourly employee" mentality.
And working conditions for professionals should not be as you describe - teachers and principals should have access to the resources they need to do their job.
All professionals worry about layoffs and termination for any reason. (Well, any legal reason - business conditions, poor department performance, sale of divisions, mergers and elimination of duplicate positions, exiting lines of business, bankruptcy, etc.)
So I get to call my doctor outside of office hours, lets' say on Sunday evening, and say, "Hey doc, you're a professional, you need to open your office for me now"? I guess not, since I recently had to wait almost three months for an appointment for ultra-sound, and am now waiting two more months for an appointment with an endocrinologist.
I got news for you -- as both a teacher and as an administrator, the weeks when I only worked 48 hours a week were the rarities. It was usually more like 52 hours a week.
I dunno. I’m torn. More money is nice, but so is two-and-a-half or three months paid leave every year, and potential retirement at age 55.
You make your bed, try to get some sleep in it. There are plenty worse jobs than teaching. I did it for nearly thirty years — not in public schools, but I still had to be on my “A” game every day I walked into the classroom...which I knew and accepted when I signed that contract...
So I get to call my doctor outside of office hours, lets' say on Sunday evening, and say, "Hey doc, you're a professional, you need to open your office for me now"? I guess not, since I recently had to wait almost three months for an appointment for ultra-sound, and am now waiting two more months for an appointment with an endocrinologist.
I got news for you -- as both a teacher and as an administrator, the weeks when I only worked 48 hours a week were the rarities. It was usually more like 52 hours a week.
72 hour weeks here as a teacher. I was well-paid for it and never complained about pay or benefits. But they can't pay me enough to work that much and put up with so much stress that most of the teachers were on anti-anxiety meds.
Teaching is not like most professional jobs. Most of the corporate world is not comparable.
First - a lot of the job is not in the teacher's control. She can put in 20 hours of prep on a particular plan...if the students don't do the reading, she is screwed, had to improvise. If students don't eat a good breakfast or get a full night's sleep on test day, she is screwed, test scores are going to be worse than they should be.
An advantage of the corporate world is that there's typically an agreed-upon and clear-cut measure of evaluation. For teachers it's different.
If you're the teacher in charge of problem kids, then just getting through the day without incident is a success. If you're the honors teacher, then AP or SAT test scores matter.
Something else that's different is the "stage time." 6 of those 7 hours of class days are on stage. ALL the actual work has to take place some other time. In the corporate world you stage time is maybe 10-20% at most when you have to do meetings, etc... Some people in the corporate world are never on stage and being able to do it is actually a valuable skill.
The closest people I've found to actually understanding that besides teachers are theatre actors/directors, stage comedians, etc... People in the corporate world look at it as only working 7 hours a day, 9 months a year. Ie: if you are going to revamp a class, it HAS to be done over the summer. It takes me a full month 5-day workweeks, 8 hour days, to create a semester class from scratch.
Like a seasoned actor playing a part they've mastered, an experienced teacher can get more time efficiency, but it's still extra work.
I agree -- but note "extra hours" is one of the attributes of being a professional. Professionals are paid to do the job, not to work specific hours. Professionals do not think in terms of "working extra hours;" professionals think in terms of "doing a superior job."
Professionals typically work 10+ hours/day at the office M-F, and perhaps another hour or two per day working from home late in the evening. Then professionals work another 10-ish or so hours on the weekend. But then again, there are times when professionals must really burn the midnight oil, working as long and as hard as necessary -- all nighters.
Here's an anecdote from early in my career: I was working for a high-end consulting company straight out of grad school, and had been on a project that started to wind down. The VP for whom I worked told me to go talk to another VP to see if I could pitch in on his project in my "spare time."
Me: "VP#2, my current project is winding down, and I can pitch in on your project; However, VP#1 still needs me at least 4 days/week on my current project."
VP#2: "Great! That gives us 3 days/week to play with!"
He was not kidding.
A common refrain of professionals, in response to more assignments, is "My plate is full," to which the usual response is "put it on your salad plate."
They should be respected as professionals, and teachers should be treated as professionals, including access to the resources to achieve their objectives - but then again, professionals do not whine about "...extra hours for which they are not paid." Professionals do not go on strike. Professionals do not have an "hourly employee" mentality.
And working conditions for professionals should not be as you describe - teachers and principals should have access to the resources they need to do their job.
All professionals worry about layoffs and termination for any reason. (Well, any legal reason - business conditions, poor department performance, sale of divisions, mergers and elimination of duplicate positions, exiting lines of business, bankruptcy, etc.)
Yeah, I have never heard anyone other than teachers complain about their job before. Checks out to me.
I agree -- but note "extra hours" is one of the attributes of being a professional. Professionals are paid to do the job, not to work specific hours. Professionals do not think in terms of "working extra hours;" professionals think in terms of "doing a superior job."
Professionals typically work 10+ hours/day at the office M-F, and perhaps another hour or two per day working from home late in the evening. Then professionals work another 10-ish or so hours on the weekend. But then again, there are times when professionals must really burn the midnight oil, working as long and as hard as necessary -- all nighters.
Here's an anecdote from early in my career: I was working for a high-end consulting company straight out of grad school, and had been on a project that started to wind down. The VP for whom I worked told me to go talk to another VP to see if I could pitch in on his project in my "spare time."
Me: "VP#2, my current project is winding down, and I can pitch in on your project; However, VP#1 still needs me at least 4 days/week on my current project."
VP#2: "Great! That gives us 3 days/week to play with!"
He was not kidding.
A common refrain of professionals, in response to more assignments, is "My plate is full," to which the usual response is "put it on your salad plate."
They should be respected as professionals, and teachers should be treated as professionals, including access to the resources to achieve their objectives - but then again, professionals do not whine about "...extra hours for which they are not paid." Professionals do not go on strike. Professionals do not have an "hourly employee" mentality.
And working conditions for professionals should not be as you describe - teachers and principals should have access to the resources they need to do their job.
All professionals worry about layoffs and termination for any reason. (Well, any legal reason - business conditions, poor department performance, sale of divisions, mergers and elimination of duplicate positions, exiting lines of business, bankruptcy, etc.)
Except teachers are not treated as professionals in many places. They get docked if they are late, they have to bring a note from the doctor if they are sick. They also get terrible pay for the hours actually worked. "Professionals" get paid enough to make it worthwhile. Teachers end up pushing below minimum wage. "Professionals" do not qualify for food stamps (in some places, teachers do). Professionals get raises and move up to a better quality of lifeses. Teachers do not.
You should quit that job it is horrible and they have a terrible attitude. It is not necessary to work like that to build a professional career. You need to have a life or there is no point in working to begin with and it is unhealthy. That is a stupid company that does not understand how to get the best work out of professional employees. Go elsewhere.
I am a professional. I never worried about layoffs. For one I knew I could always find another job, typically at higher pay regardless of the market, and later, I owned enough of the firm I really could not be laid off, now I just do not care however in this market, I could find another job tomorrow. The advantage of being a professional is you are in demand.
Teaching is not like most professional jobs. Most of the corporate world is not comparable.
That's right We don't get TENURE in 3 years like Teachers still do in 33 States.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57
First - a lot of the job is not in the teacher's control. She can put in 20 hours of prep on a particular plan...if the students don't do the reading, she is screwed, had to improvise. If students don't eat a good breakfast or get a full night's sleep on test day, she is screwed, test scores are going to be worse than they should be.
A Utility Linemen's job is is not in his control either and they'll work longer under worse conditions then any Teachers.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-07-2018 at 08:46 AM..
Reason: Fixed formatting
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