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Old 07-22-2018, 10:31 AM
 
11,642 posts, read 23,820,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Ok, then I guess I am older than your daughters. So maybe colleges are no longer using "leadership" as a euphemism for "popularity", or maybe it's more common in the northeast, or maybe it was unique to the colleges that I applied to.

I have kids who have been to college more recently. One graduated in 2016, one in 2018 and one is going into is sophomore year. What I was told about leadership is that colleges are looking for students who will make a contribution on campus. This is especially true at smaller colleges and universities.



They are looking for students who do more than just participate in activities. They are looking for the people who make the activities happen. For instance, officers of clubs, captains of teams, section leaders, drum majors, winners of art/photography/music awards.
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Old 07-22-2018, 10:32 AM
 
12,625 posts, read 8,850,364 times
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Katarina, I tend to speak in general terms, in this thread and others, because I am talking about education in general in this country. I don't pretend that a single data point of one district or area is the standard for all districts and schools around the country. If I did that, if I went by the one high school my kids attended, then I would actually be saying the same things you are about schools. But I have been in enough schools bringing STEM resources, and met with enough teachers, and lived in enough parts of the country to know that the academic experience in individual schools is not the norm across the country. And that the population needs are simply not the same from one location to the next.


I'm not the one looking for confirmation bias. I already recognize there exists a difference in how athletics and academics are viewed by the general population so I just asked the question "why?" Because we cannot improve if we are unwilling to recognize issues that exist and their causes.
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Old 07-22-2018, 11:31 AM
 
Location: The point of no return, er, NorCal
7,400 posts, read 6,338,494 times
Reputation: 9636
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Katarina, I tend to speak in general terms, in this thread and others, because I am talking about education in general in this country. I don't pretend that a single data point of one district or area is the standard for all districts and schools around the country. If I did that, if I went by the one high school my kids attended, then I would actually be saying the same things you are about schools. But I have been in enough schools bringing STEM resources, and met with enough teachers, and lived in enough parts of the country to know that the academic experience in individual schools is not the norm across the country. And that the population needs are simply not the same from one location to the next.


I'm not the one looking for confirmation bias. I already recognize there exists a difference in how athletics and academics are viewed by the general population so I just asked the question "why?" Because we cannot improve if we are unwilling to recognize issues that exist and their causes.
Exactly. There's a wide range of attitudes that vary based on location/region and several other factors. If I were speaking of, say, my eldest daughter's current school, then yes, academics are heavily praised, given the environment. These parents are super serious about their kids attending the best college and the local papers boast about their achievements at various state and national tournaments. If I revealed my daughter has interest in attending a boarding school in SoCal and has her sights on Minerva Schools, it's no big deal, but outside this enclave of high achievers and academically gifted, the responses are not as well-received, and they stand out from the norm. Unsurprisingly, across town, the schools my kids are zoned for, the middle and high school are big into sports. There's a stark difference in the reviews. "If you're not into or good at sports, good luck being noticed or getting funded." The high school football team is top ten in our region. Sports seems to be a big deal, which is not the case for my daughter's school. Both the middle and high school.

I don't mingle much with other local parents, but online communities draw people from all over from all walks of life, and I'm more in touch with parents in these spaces. It's these spaces that I come across the attitudes in the OP.
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,273,714 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Katarina, I tend to speak in general terms, in this thread and others, because I am talking about education in general in this country. I don't pretend that a single data point of one district or area is the standard for all districts and schools around the country. If I did that, if I went by the one high school my kids attended, then I would actually be saying the same things you are about schools. But I have been in enough schools bringing STEM resources, and met with enough teachers, and lived in enough parts of the country to know that the academic experience in individual schools is not the norm across the country. And that the population needs are simply not the same from one location to the next.


I'm not the one looking for confirmation bias. I already recognize there exists a difference in how athletics and academics are viewed by the general population so I just asked the question "why?" Because we cannot improve if we are unwilling to recognize issues that exist and their causes.
I have given you examples of several schools as have a number of other posters, so I don't know why I'm getting this particular condescending lecture. And what's with this STEM stuff? Didn't we have one poster who acted like it's not an indicator for "high academics"?

I would like to see some verification of that first bold. Plus, I don't quite understand what "the academic experience in individual schools is not the norm across the country" even means! And what on earth do you mean "the population needs are simply not the same from one location to the next"? Please explain and give examples of locations where you think kids don't need a strong education.

You have not shown that to be the case, not in Tennessee or anywhere else. Many people, not just me, have given examples to the contrary in their communities.


Starting a thread with "why" is begging the question. And you never answered my question about your definition of "hate" in your thread title.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 07-22-2018 at 01:43 PM..
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,273,714 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphysique View Post
I'm referring to the spaces I travel in, not everybody the world over. Since my kids aren't into sports, I've not experienced parents in these very specific spaces, I'm talking general conversations, often centered on young kids, in discussions about development, learning, academics, updates on what kids are doing/what they're into, what parents are proud of.

I'll qualify my statement, I have not seen anyone in these discussions, in specific spaces I travel in, get extra perturbed when athletic or artistic talent comes up, in the way that advanced development or academic prowess does. I wouldn't doubt that extra parents, whether sports, dance/stage, academic, are downright annoying. Those exist in all forms.

The schools my eldest daughter is zoned for prizes sports over academics. There are several like this in my area. Her school is not one of them. It's known for its academics. Both IB schools. It's actually one of the reasons both the middle and high school receive some poor reviews. "They don't have good sports programs. Nerds and geeks rule these schools. It sucks." and "There's no social life." From parents and students.

I've gone to a couple open houses and overheard those super active IB booster parents talking about getting their kid Ivy and top tier ready. This is probably the norm in these circles, and I'm sure I'd think they are annoying at times, if I spent any time with them, but these attitudes are pretty specific to these types of schools. Other schools in the same district lean heavily on the sports side.
Well, that may be part of your problem with understanding the issue. My kids did do sports, and I got a different perspective. And as parents do gossip, many thought some of these parents' expectations for their kids to get college scholarships in particular, were hilariously unrealistic.

Perhaps you could give one example, since you seem to see this happening frequently. Of course, protect everyone's privacy.

That entire paragraph does not make sense to me. Why would anyone expect an IB school to have strong sports programs? (Though I have to say, we have one charter school whose high school is ranked #1 in Colorado and #111 in the US that has a great soccer program [boys' of course]).
https://www.usnews.com/education/bes...er-school-3997
Peak to Peak boys soccer continues remarkable run - Colorado Hometown Weekly

And you know that how?
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,273,714 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphysique View Post
Exactly. There's a wide range of attitudes that vary based on location/region and several other factors. If I were speaking of, say, my eldest daughter's current school, then yes, academics are heavily praised, given the environment. These parents are super serious about their kids attending the best college and the local papers boast about their achievements at various state and national tournaments. If I revealed my daughter has interest in attending a boarding school in SoCal and has her sights on Minerva Schools, it's no big deal, but outside this enclave of high achievers and academically gifted, the responses are not as well-received, and they stand out from the norm. Unsurprisingly, across town, the schools my kids are zoned for, the middle and high school are big into sports. There's a stark difference in the reviews. "If you're not into or good at sports, good luck being noticed or getting funded." The high school football team is top ten in our region. Sports seems to be a big deal, which is not the case for my daughter's school. Both the middle and high school.

I don't mingle much with other local parents, but online communities draw people from all over from all walks of life, and I'm more in touch with parents in these spaces. It's these spaces that I come across the attitudes in the OP.
Oh, yes, exactly! You guys and a few other posters are right, and all the rest of us with our different experiences are wrong.

That doesn't seem to be the experience of many IRL.
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Old 07-22-2018, 01:34 PM
 
12,625 posts, read 8,850,364 times
Reputation: 34499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I have given you examples of several schools as have a number of other posters, so I don't know why I'm getting this particular condescending lecture. And what's with this STEM stuff? Didn't we have one poster who acted like it's not an indicator for "high academics"?
....

Yes, and as I noted, if I went by just the specific example of my kids school, it would appear different as well. But specific exceptions do not invalidate the general perception overall. As for the STEM reference, it was conversation. I gave the reason I was in the schools. If it had been history, I would have said history. Just like in the other post where I said "baseball" when I could have as easily said "soccer" or a number of other sports. Just a conversational term. No need to search for deep hidden meanings behind every word to nitpick to death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
...
I would like to see some verification of that first bold. Plus, I don't quite understand what "the academic experience in individual schools is not the norm across the country" even means! And what on earth do you mean "the population needs are simply not the same from one location to the next"? Please explain and give examples of locations where you think kids don't need a strong education.

....

Verification that I have been in schools talking about STEM or verification that different school have different needs? I honestly don't understand why these statements are so confusing, because we've had this conversation before in other threads. It's really simple. The classes, the academics, the study body in a well funded, upper class school where most of the parents are focused on college is going to have a different student body and focus than, say, a small rural school where most of the parents are focused on getting jobs. Those in school systems on the extreme high end seem to believe their experience is everyone's and don't recognize the vast differences across the country.


It is interesting that you seem to interpret "different" as "weak" or not needing a strong education. I've never said that. What I have said is they need an appropriate education. And don't look for a hidden meaning there either, because there is none. For example I speak of the need for more vocational education in other threads, but you seem to look down on those who go that path. Different abilities and educational goals in life does not mean less, it means different. Appropriate does not mean weak. It means appropriate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
...
...
You have not shown that to be the case, not in Tennessee or anywhere else. Many people, not just me, have given examples to the contrary in their communities.
Many people, not just me, have given examples to the contrary in their communities.

Starting a thread with "why" is begging the question. And you never answered my question about your definition of "hate" in your thread title.

Never said they didn't or that they weren't valid. They represent one tail of the distribution. That doesn't account for the rest of the distribution though. When you pull the rest of the distribution in, the actual norm is below what it would appear from these specific exceptions. I'm talking to the norm, not the exceptions. As I've already said several times.


I've answered the last part for you before too. Just look up thread. As for "hate" it should be obvious from the context -- dislike, roll eyes, make googly faces at, make jokes about, disparage, look down upon, pick on, bully, pick last in gym, whatever. This is a conversation forum, not a legal brief.
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Old 07-22-2018, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,273,714 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Yes, and as I noted, if I went by just the specific example of my kids school, it would appear different as well. But specific exceptions do not invalidate the general perception overall. As for the STEM reference, it was conversation. I gave the reason I was in the schools. If it had been history, I would have said history. Just like in the other post where I said "baseball" when I could have as easily said "soccer" or a number of other sports. Just a conversational term. No need to search for deep hidden meanings behind every word to nitpick to death.




Verification that I have been in schools talking about STEM or verification that different school have different needs? I honestly don't understand why these statements are so confusing, because we've had this conversation before in other threads. It's really simple. The classes, the academics, the study body in a well funded, upper class school where most of the parents are focused on college is going to have a different student body and focus than, say, a small rural school where most of the parents are focused on getting jobs. Those in school systems on the extreme high end seem to believe their experience is everyone's and don't recognize the vast differences across the country.


It is interesting that you seem to interpret "different" as "weak" or not needing a strong education. I've never said that. What I have said is they need an appropriate education. And don't look for a hidden meaning there either, because there is none. For example I speak of the need for more vocational education in other threads, but you seem to look down on those who go that path. Different abilities and educational goals in life does not mean less, it means different. Appropriate does not mean weak. It means appropriate.




Never said they didn't or that they weren't valid. They represent one tail of the distribution. That doesn't account for the rest of the distribution though. When you pull the rest of the distribution in, the actual norm is below what it would appear from these specific exceptions. I'm talking to the norm, not the exceptions. As I've already said several times.


I've answered the last part for you before too. Just look up thread. As for "hate" it should be obvious from the context -- dislike, roll eyes, make googly faces at, make jokes about, disparage, look down upon, pick on, bully, pick last in gym, whatever. This is a conversation forum, not a legal brief.
Both. Oh, I know. You think rural schools should just teach vo-ag and the like, even though only about 2% of people work in farming, regardless of whether they live in a rural or urban area. Why, no farm kid has ever gone to college, nor should any of them aspire to do so. After all "college isn't for everyone" and it's been given to tnff to decide who it is and isn't for. We've heard that a-plenty.

You know flipping well that vocational ed is perceived as lesser than college, probably because it is. For every anecdote about some mechanic making $200K/year blah, blah that you can give, I'll post this: https://www.bls.gov/emp/chart-unempl...-education.htm
Higher education levels mean, in general, more money and less unemployment.

Not to mention, as I said above, kids in rural or blue collar areas deserve a decent education to get them into the post high school situation of their choice, not the choice of someone who thinks rural kids don't deserve college prep courses in high school.

As for "hate", even one of your acolytes said that was too strong a word. I've never seen this stuff you're talking about based on academics. I've known of kids who were bullied, in one case quite badly. But it wasn't for academics. The kid was "different" and in ironically, a blue collarish HS like the one this child went to, that's not OK. He'd have been better off at a funkier high school where there were a lot of, for the sake of clarity, "oddballs".

Let's look at this again: Definitions In Semantics: The Humpty-Dumpty Principle in Definitions
"What Humpty-Dumpty is saying is that he can stipulate what the definition of a term is. . . A second point here is that if a term is to be used in a nonconventional way, then the definition should be explained up front."
"`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' "
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Old 07-22-2018, 02:02 PM
 
11,565 posts, read 12,583,757 times
Reputation: 15674
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Katarina, I tend to speak in general terms, in this thread and others, because I am talking about education in general in this country. I don't pretend that a single data point of one district or area is the standard for all districts and schools around the country. If I did that, if I went by the one high school my kids attended, then I would actually be saying the same things you are about schools. But I have been in enough schools bringing STEM resources, and met with enough teachers, and lived in enough parts of the country to know that the academic experience in individual schools is not the norm across the country. And that the population needs are simply not the same from one location to the next.


I'm not the one looking for confirmation bias. I already recognize there exists a difference in how athletics and academics are viewed by the general population so I just asked the question "why?" Because we cannot improve if we are unwilling to recognize issues that exist and their causes.
I'll take a stab at answering why. It depends in the values placed on education by the students' families and the local environment of the students. If strong physicality is a priority, then acceleration in sports will garner greater recognition. Sports is also entertaining for people.
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Old 07-22-2018, 02:48 PM
 
Location: The point of no return, er, NorCal
7,400 posts, read 6,338,494 times
Reputation: 9636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Well, that may be part of your problem with understanding the issue. My kids did do sports, and I got a different perspective. And as parents do gossip, many thought some of these parents' expectations for their kids to get college scholarships in particular, were hilariously unrealistic.
I agree. I have cousins that were heavily into sports with parents like that. I was primarily focused on dance for about 12 years and attended a performing arts middle and high school. The high school was actually also known for its sports and creative/performing, not really its academics.

My mom was not at all a "stage mom." She couldn't be bothered with most parents, and we likely both knew that while I enjoyed it, I was not a gifted dancer. Good, not, like, amazing.

Quote:
Perhaps you could give one example, since you seem to see this happening frequently. Of course, protect everyone's privacy.
Example, as in, screen shots? I've not thought to screen shot these forum and group discussions. I mean, I'm observant of these attitudes and how these discussions go, but they never rank high on my radar to collect physical data or proof. Your daughters are my age, right? Mid-30s? The whole age of internet and online communities definitely expands our reach and exposure to others. I'm not into play dates and mommy & me groups, but I've heard similar things in these groups, which often center around kid-talk, of course. And like clockwork, what said kids are doing and that leads into comparisons of other people's kids, anxiety and worry about development, and responses in the vein of "everyone thinks their kid is special" or collective eye-rolls and sighs should parents share that their 9 month old is walking, or their 20 month old talks in complete sentences with correct and complex grammar, or whatever.

I tend to see it most among parents of young kids or first time parents. These topics come up with regularity in "due date" groups and pregnancy and parenting forums. I've been active in a couple dozen over the span of 14 years and six kids. Since these groups center on kids of the same age and stage of development, these discussions are frequent, as they develop so fast in the first few years, until usually grade school, when they become less frequent, or these conversations are reserved for occasional updates on how kids are doing in school and other such school-age kid-talk. These discussions also seem to vary depending on the particular group and its core demographic.

Quote:
That entire paragraph does not make sense to me. Why would anyone expect an IB school to have strong sports programs? (Though I have to say, we have one charter school whose high school is ranked #1 in Colorado and #111 in the US that has a great soccer program [boys' of course]).
https://www.usnews.com/education/bes...er-school-3997
Peak to Peak boys soccer continues remarkable run - Colorado Hometown Weekly

And you know that how?
I know. Which is why I found the poor reviews interesting. The schools are known for their academics. Not all of the students are IB diplomats or in the diploma program, but much of its funding and recognition is centered on academics, rather than sports, like other schools in the district. "Nerds and geeks run the school." is such a funny complaint on the shift in social dynamics. But I get the complaints that the "regular ed" kids have less access to enrichment activities and resources offered to IB students. If, say, you don't excel in academics, or maybe even sports, at least you could get into the "school spirit" and more robust social life and activities, which is the vibe I get from some of the complaints." So some would prefer it be an IBMY and DP program school, instead of the magnet program operating within the neighborhood school for "regular ed" students.
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