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Hello Everyone (Don't all of you shut down your computers at once. It might cause some sort of crazy power failure!) I've been gone all day, now back at my regular computer. Let's regroup. A couple days ago, I asked:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
Please document the number of baristas with 4 year college degrees.
And why on earth is it important to start working full time in a lifetime occupation at 18? Good grief, the age for full social security retirement now is 67, that's almost 50 years, plus you get a bonus if you continue to age 70.
Magritte25 replied:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25
Well one, you'd avoid that debt as soon as you start out on your own. That in and of itself is a major plus. And two, with social security and pensions (private and public sectors) being so unstable, having a four to six year head start on earning potential would be quite helpful as well.
To which I replied today:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
With the almost assured probability of lower lifetime earnings and higher unemployment. Someone with a BS can make up for those 4 years easily with the higher earnings and less UE. Always so glad I saved this: https://www.bls.gov/emp/chart-unempl...-education.htm
Ralph Kirk then posted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
Seventy percent of kids don't get bachelor's degrees.
The US does not have the luxury to continue to pretend they don't exist, as a number of people in this thread are doing.
Let's stop here and discuss. 41% of all people ages 25-64 (working age people) in the US have at least an associate's degree. 43% of Millennials ages 25-34 have at least an associate's nationwide. In some states over half of all workers have at least an associate's. That is a large subgroup. https://www.ohe.state.mn.us/dPg.cfm?pageID=1814
Then there are those people who have some type of non-degree post secondary education. A while back, I posted a link of the 30 highest paying trades in the US. ALL required some type of post-secondary education.
When one is talking about a 4 to 6 year head start on earnings, one is talking about high school graduates. Just what can a high school graduate do that would be a lifetime career? Farming, yes. Not much else that's really a career. People on here like to talk about baristas with college degrees, but that is the type of job you can get with a high school education (or less, even). Ditto fast food, working in retail places such as Walmart, Target, Kohl's; front desk at a doctor's office, receptionist, etc. Is there opportunity for advancement? To a point no doubt, but there's only so far one can advance w/o any post HS education.
I've never argued "solely a high school diploma." I've argued that high school should have available a "tech-prep" curriculum that would prepare a kid for advanced technical training and certification after high school.
And, btw, 30% is a significant minority. Why not serve the majority? Why not make serving the majority a priority, in fact?
Moreover, society does not need any more than about 30% with bachelor's degrees. It needs a lot more people who know how to build and maintain things.
Education is not like running an election. Everyone's needs need to be met. Even the constitution of the US protects the rights of the minority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1
<snip>
I fought this battle with HR in hospitals. I wanted to hire people with experience who often did not have degrees. HR wanted to write specific job requirements such as: bachelors degree and 2-4 years experience required.
Your point?
It used to be that an undergraduate degree was a ticket into entry level management. Those were the days when not many people had degrees and most of those who did were teachers, nurses, engineers, accountants, lawyers, and doctors. Supply and demand have changed and there are many more people with degrees for those shrinking numbers of jobs.
To do what? In hospitals in particular, many jobs require licensure, and to get a license one must first be a graduate of an approved school in the field of the license, e.g. nursing, pharmacy, PT, etc.
There are shortages in many of the underlined fields.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
Sometimes I think many older posters don't realize how much technology has affected occupations that used to require little technical knowledge. I think of a head custodian we used to have at our school who used to do just fine, but today would have a major problem trying to manage HVAC equipment that is computer controlled. I think about a cashier that I saw dissolve into tears because she had no inkling of how to operate the computer...which is exactly what her cash register was. I think about over twenty years ago when the mechanic at the gas station couldn't figure out how to use the computer and fax to send the data to the state saying that my car passed inspection, and thus couldn't print out for me the sticker needed for the windshield. I think of the people I see -- particularly some who are older -- for whom a smart phone is a mountain to climb and who can't program their television. Life isn't what it used to be, and there's no going back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
It doesn't take a bachelor's degree to do any of those things.
A young enlisted guy out of the Air Force without a college degree could easily train for any of them.
I don't think that's what phetaroi was talking about, if I may be so bold as to try to interpret what he said. I think he's saying our world is a lot more technological than it was say 40 years ago, or even 20. Cars are very computerized these days, and you can't learn all about those computer systems in high school with just high school math, especially when lots of the vo-tech kids take the lowest level math courses they can.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 11-27-2018 at 09:09 PM..
It's not their parent's fault. By the time you're 18, you don't need your parents blessing to do what you want. Community college is a lot cheaper and a 2 year degree can be obtained easily for many people. I find most people who didn't attend college at all, just didn't want to make the sacrifices to do so. I do not feel sorry for them. Many of them seem jealous and bitter towards people with degrees, which makes me even less sympathetic.
Hey! We agree on something!
Even as an educator, I don't believe every child should go to college. In fact, there are some children who should NOT go to college. However, every child ought to have the opportunity if they want it. I also feel that middle and high schools ought to have good/better vocational tracks.
But you have hit the nail right on the head. College is about sacrifice and initiative. An although I'm sure there are young people who regret going to college, the only former students of mine that I've know who had regrets, were those who didn't go to college, and are now stuck in menial jobs that are not getting them the homes or cars or family-life-situations they want. And you know what my response to them is -- tough luck. You took the easy way out at the time. Enjoy your life...or do something about it.
It doesn't take a bachelor's degree to do any of those things.
A young enlisted guy out of the Air Force without a college degree could easily train for any of them.
But I am not talking about bachelor's degrees. But I am talking about something beyond high school. There are technical schools and community colleges that are just fine for some young people.
You can also price yourself right out of someone's hiring range as well. I'm unemployed, and I have a master's degree.
To add insult to injury, I'm not sure I have the skills some high school graduates were able to accumulate (for example, I can't program computers, don't know a foreign language, and I never took Calculus).
Difficult how? ANYONE with internet access can apply to a regionally accredited online college with 100% acceptance rate and get a degree. You can now get a high school diploma and GED online too.
Don't insult the intelligence of the American people. I've taken online college courses with single parents, grandmothers, grandfathers, deployed servicemen, 1st and 2nd generational immigrants, non-native English speakers, etc. This is not the 1980's were your only option was brick and mortar.
I didn't need supportive parents. You can't choose what parents you get to have in this world, and they damn sure can't get a degree for you.
I think this apologetic self-victimization like yours makes it challenging for America's underclass to gain the confidence it takes to go back to school, so they don't even try. You believe they're helpless victims in a country with countless opportunities and that mindset is dead wrong.
No politician or legislation will ever uplift you out of poverty faster than a college degree. Ever.
That is basically buying a piece of paper. It makes a mockery out of education and designed only for profit. I am not sure why our society is buying into this. Oh wait, profit. It isn't about accomplishment. We need to FIX the education system not continue to dumb it down.
When one is talking about a 4 to 6 year head start on earnings, one is talking about high school graduates. Just what can a high school graduate do that would be a lifetime career? Farming, yes. Not much else that's really a career. People on here like to talk about baristas with college degrees, but that is the type of job you can get with a high school education (or less, even). Ditto fast food, working in retail places such as Walmart, Target, Kohl's; front desk at a doctor's office, receptionist, etc. Is there opportunity for advancement? To a point no doubt, but there's only so far one can advance w/o any post HS education.
Sales. Advertising/Marketing. Paralegal. Realtor. Tech work. Office Manager. Administrative Assistant. DOT work. Truck-driver. Construction/Contractor. Tower Climbing. Contract analyst. Solar installation. Park ranger. Insurance adjuster. Translator/Interpreter. Transcription/Court Reporter. Factory work that will see you aging out into supervisory roles. Hotel management. Restaurant management. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, etc. all pay you WHILE you learn. And I'll mention sales again because an ENORMOUS number of salespeople outearn those with degrees. My husband and I each make much more than my professor friends... it chaps quite a few of them. It also stings our co-workers with massive student loans to pay off, who can't afford a home or a trip or to max out their 401K match.
These are positions that start at entry level and build up the skills... they *are* the post-secondary education. Sometimes, you're trained on the job to gain a license that the state requires. It takes several weeks, you take your test, and you're qualified. Some employers see amazing potential and pay for you to get a degree. All the while, you're gaining the social skills and industry-specific jargon and mannerisms that encourage those who are experienced to take you under their wing. And when you start at the bottom and work your way up, you learn every facet of that industry... and know what it takes to start your own company and BE their competition, like when your employer arbitrarily decides that you need a degree for a position you're WELL qualified to do. You start your own company. You make wild money driving a truck and buy your own. You drill and make a TON, live small, and retire on your investments... with tiny living expenses because you have no debts.
We all should continue learning after our formal education ends, no matter how soon or late that is. To say that those without formal education after high school have no real career potential is - to be plain - ignorant.
eta: I have countless stories but the first encounter I had with this was a family friend's son. He's the oldest of 8 and is my age. He dropped in his first semester, in winter. He plowed driveways and mowed lawns and did landscaping. In the summer, he did construction work. That was backbreaking; he didn't want to do that anymore. Not forever. He got a job as a realtor and they trained him. He had a LOT of money saved from his hard work and paid everything upfront, so he could be independent. Several months later, he bought the worst house in a great neighborhood, flipped it, and bought new construction in a new neighborhood. At 20 years old. That's when all of our parents stopped gossiping about how he'd thrown his life away.
He's 35 now. His multi-faceted real estate company is well-established. His wife became a licensed realtor and works from home with their 3 children. They still buy abandoned old gems, fix them up and modernize, and sell them... via his contracting work, which he gained experience for by not going to college and doing gruntwork instead. They also drill wells, have a construction company, landscaping, insurance...
One of my brothers went to a fancy boarding school, traveled throughout Europe, and is now a carpenter. He can't keep up with demand for $5000 dining tables. He's 19. He has good connections.
Unless your degree is for skilled work (doctor, lawyer, scientist, engineer, etc.), college is about forging connections. Careers are built from forging and maintaining the right connections, whether you have a degree or not. Our eldest daughter is an artist - she doesn't need a degree for that. Sending her to Europe for 6 months, meeting the right people and making the right connections, will do more for her work (and is INSANELY less expensive) than other relatives (in the arts) have been able to gain by getting Masters and PhDs in it... except that they have loans in the hundreds of thousands. She won't. She's had shows in galleries they couldn't get a meeting for... and those offers were brought TO her. *I* have been contacted to convince her when she's said no.
Those kinds of social skills are learned, not taught.
You can also price yourself right out of someone's hiring range as well. I'm unemployed, and I have a master's degree.
To add insult to injury, I'm not sure I have the skills some high school graduates were able to accumulate (for example, I can't program computers, don't know a foreign language, and I never took Calculus).
Unless you make millions of dollars, you can find a job in your range. You may need to play up transferable skills and shift to a different industry or job title.
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