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Old 12-01-2018, 10:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Yes, you are assuming excess teachers because if the extra section of general classes was that small, they wouldn't have run it anyway. It seems many on here work or live in districts with deep pockets and that can run all sorts of programs. You have described your own school system in such a way that it is way outside the normal range of the vast majority of schools. What you work in as normal is in an extreme tail end for most schools in the country. The statement that teachers in today's schools have a degree in subject is simply incorrect. For example AIP in 2009 stated:
Yes, of course you need to marginalize my experience because otherwise you would have to admit your were wrong. Problem is while my current district may be well off, the other 4 I worked in before this were not distinctly NOT. Two abbott districts, one middle class and one lower middle class but not abbot. I was on the scheduling committee for all. AP classes are the priority right behind special ed. Well before gen ed.

Your supposition is based solely on the notion that the number of teachers exactly matches the maximum class size and this is so far from the truth as to be laughable.

Enrollment in the public high schools in the US has gone up about 13% over the last 10 years. Care to guess how much AP enrollment has increased in that same time period? More than 200%

https://www.collegeboard.org/release...nced-placement

That means that schools are prioritizing AP classes over gen ed when scheduling. A trend that is NEW and neither you nor MITGUY would have seen when you were in high school. As has been stated, multiple times.

Quote:
To educate those students, schools hire about 1200 new physics teachers each year; approximately three-fourths of them teach mathematics and other science courses in addition to physics. Only a third of the new hires have a degree in physics or physics education (see figure 1(b)). Many of the remaining 800 new teachers lack formal training in how to teach physics concepts and are often deficient in physics knowledge. The American Association for Employment in Education reports that with the exception of special-education instruction, physics teacher positions are the most difficult to fill in high schools.


and in 2017:

although only around 30% of US physics teachers have a bachelor’s or master’s degree with a major field of study in physics, a narrow majority of that group stated on recent surveys that their physics degrees were awarded by schools or colleges of education.
No link to your source. Why is that? Here let me help you with that. https://www.aapt.org/Resources/uploa...er-article.pdf

BTW, your source is 10 years old.

That is about general ed teachers. It would be relevant if every teacher taught AP. That is not the case. Schools need to pass an AP review before or before they appoint new teacher to AP. But pretending this is true and from a credible source (easier to do if one is provided) applying it to AP, nearly1/3 of the physics teachers have a degree in their field, something the AP board expects. Which teachers are going to be assigned to AP classes? The ones without a degree in their field or the ones without?



Quote:
That says that less than 15% have a degree in the field from a physics institution. Many schools have no qualified physics teachers.
Your source, that you posted, say 30% of teacher have a bachelors or masters with a major in physics or physics education. That isn't 15%, it also does not say they did not go to a school without a physics program. That is a fabrication on your part. A university with an education program is also likely to have a physics program, which is where the physics ed major is required to take their 18-24 credits of physics to meet their requirements. And they are still more likely to put the person with the entire degree in their field in charge of the AP classes. And ignores the fact that schools are more likely to run AP classes and cut their gen science classes (especially in a field like physics where it is not a requirement for graduation) BECAUSE IT DIRECTLY BENEFITS THE SCHOOL


Quote:
Someone else gets assigned the task. My daughter for example just graduated with a degree in physics and was recruited by several schools just in our local area because they had no physics teacher, but she turned them down and went into industry because they couldn't come close on pay.
Cool story. You do realize that you have tried to marginalize my experience as a schedule coordinator at many districts with anecdotes about your kid. Interesting.

Quote:
While you may call "bologna," that simply says that just because you haven't personally experienced something doesn't mean others haven't. That's why I can't discount MITSGUY; my experiences match his in many ways as do that of many of my friends.
Maybe 20 years ago and if you know nothing about how schools actually schedule. So imagine my surprise that you agree with him.

Oh but wait, your friends too! Well now that is scientifically accurate! Your friend group is surely bigger than my experience in schools for nearly 20 years in four districts at all income levels for literally thousands of students. Why didn't you say so

 
Old 12-01-2018, 10:31 AM
 
15,970 posts, read 13,418,679 times
Reputation: 19909
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Actually that's somewhat incorrect. The CollegeBoard® has no requirements for teacher qualification, only recommendations. The main one is that the teacher had at least three years of teaching experience. Certifications are phrased as "or related field".

And again, not requirements, only recommendations.
In the last 10 years or so our district has only gotten approval from College board for AP teachers with either a degree in their field or 18 credits of undergrad/grad in the field. Education classes were not considered a "related field". Bio classes were not considered a "related field" for physics.

The easiest science AP to get teachers approved for were chemistry as physics and bio classes were considered related.
 
Old 12-01-2018, 11:05 AM
Status: "Tinsel, not just for decoration" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
32,550 posts, read 39,948,785 times
Reputation: 41213
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
In the last 10 years or so our district has only gotten approval from College board for AP teachers with either a degree in their field or 18 credits of undergrad/grad in the field. Education classes were not considered a "related field". Bio classes were not considered a "related field" for physics.

The easiest science AP to get teachers approved for were chemistry as physics and bio classes were considered related.
Since when does CollegeBoard "approve" teachers? I was my school's AP Coordinator for a decade and never, not once, did a teacher have to get "approved".

A syllabus for the class had to be submitted and approved by CollegeBoard but individual teacher creds were never asked about.

Even the, hell I don't remember what it was called, that the Principal (meaning in my case the AP Coordinator because the Principal couldn't be bothered with things like that) had to fill out in certifying that the class had books, a budget and a scheduled time didn't touch on teacher creds.
 
Old 12-01-2018, 11:15 AM
 
15,970 posts, read 13,418,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Since when does CollegeBoard "approve" teachers? I was my school's AP Coordinator for a decade and never, not once, did a teacher have to get "approved".
The AP coordinator submits them for the AP audit. There is an initial audit for new course, where curricula, etc is submitted along with the teacher info.

Quote:
A syllabus for the class had to be submitted and approved by CollegeBoard but individual teacher creds were never asked about.
Yes for the initial course offering we do that too. Additionally, the AP coordinator has to name who is going to teacher the course, their certification, etc. If the AP teacher changes they ask for an update, tho that may be a recommendation vs requirement again. As for teacher credentials I just had to submit my graduate school transcript for the AP capstone courses.

Quote:
Even the, hell I don't remember what it was called, that the Principal (meaning in my case the AP Coordinator because the Principal couldn't be bothered with things like that) had to fill out in certifying that the class had books, a budget and a scheduled time didn't touch on teacher creds.
I have only been personally involved in AP approvals at this school for 7 years. I had to submit my credentials to the BOE who approved me to teach my other class, and that approval went to the AP coordinator who forwarded it to college board. This just happened again this year as we are now undergoing the initial audit for the AP Capstone.
 
Old 12-01-2018, 11:28 AM
Status: "Tinsel, not just for decoration" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
32,550 posts, read 39,948,785 times
Reputation: 41213
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
The AP coordinator submits them for the AP audit. There is an initial audit for new course, where curricula, etc is submitted along with the teacher info.



Yes for the initial course offering we do that too. Additionally, the AP coordinator has to name who is going to teacher the course, their certification, etc. If the AP teacher changes they ask for an update, tho that may be a recommendation vs requirement again. As for teacher credentials I just had to submit my graduate school transcript for the AP capstone courses.



I have only been personally involved in AP approvals at this school for 7 years. I had to submit my credentials to the BOE who approved me to teach my other class, and that approval went to the AP coordinator who forwarded it to college board. This just happened again this year as we are now undergoing the initial audit for the AP Capstone.
Capstone is something new which I didn't deal with.

I can guarantee that when I submitted the syllabi for the various courses that all that had to be included was the teacher's name, nothing about any credentials or certs.

We even used the same syllabus for multiple teachers (in fact most weren't even generated by the teacher but the system's Curriculum poobahs so most high schools used the same syllabus for their AP classes).

Our BOE has nothing to do with approving who teaches what class, that's a school based decision (which is how I, a Social Studies teacher, got to teach Earth Science one year, as well as English 9 and English 11 another time). You're at a specialty magnet so protocols may be different.

And we're in different states.
 
Old 12-02-2018, 12:43 AM
 
5,070 posts, read 4,648,876 times
Reputation: 3255
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
LOL you think classes only run at full capacity?

We would find the smallest section of the general class typically half capacity or so, and spread them out to the other classes. Then offer two smaller sections of the AP. Schools want AP course to run. It is to their direct benefit to have more students in AP. They will absolutely make general classes bigger (even substantially bigger) to run another AP section.
That is true in classes that meet in a regular classroom, such as math, English, or social studies. Even if the cap is technically 24 due to union regulations, they can maybe get around it by offering a teacher some other benefit (such as no 1st period class, or not having lunch duty that year) if they agree to a class with more than the limit.

But in the case of science classes meeting in a science lab, the 24 student cap was treated as a hard cap, since that was all that the lab facilities could accommodate.

Quote:
No I am not assuming extra teachers. As a matter of fact I am not assuming anything as I actually do this every year.

As for the notion that the same teacher can teach AP classes in bio and physics I call bologna. College board requires AP teacher to have a degree (or equivalent credits) in their field. Not a teaching degree, an actual biology degree or physics degree. So for a single teacher, in todays schools, to be scheduled for AP classes in bio and physics would be so unusual as to be meaningless when talking about generalities of scheduling.
Other posters have already pointed out that what you posted was false.

By the way, "bologna" is a lunch meat, and "Bologna" is a city in Italy. I think the word that you want is "baloney". Then again, you seem to think that since you are a science teacher, that it's not important to use proper grammar and spelling. I'll respond to that thread when I get a chance.

I should also mention that, at least in my school district, at least when I was a student (not sure if this is common or still the case even in my district), every teacher was allowed to teach 1 class per day in a subject that they were not certified for.
 
Old 12-02-2018, 12:44 AM
 
5,070 posts, read 4,648,876 times
Reputation: 3255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Yes, you are assuming excess teachers because if the extra section of general classes was that small, they wouldn't have run it anyway. It seems many on here work or live in districts with deep pockets and that can run all sorts of programs. You have described your own school system in such a way that it is way outside the normal range of the vast majority of schools. What you work in as normal is in an extreme tail end for most schools in the country. The statement that teachers in today's schools have a degree in subject is simply incorrect. For example AIP in 2009 stated:

To educate those students, schools hire about 1200 new physics teachers each year; approximately three-fourths of them teach mathematics and other science courses in addition to physics. Only a third of the new hires have a degree in physics or physics education (see figure 1(b)). Many of the remaining 800 new teachers lack formal training in how to teach physics concepts and are often deficient in physics knowledge. The American Association for Employment in Education reports that with the exception of special-education instruction, physics teacher positions are the most difficult to fill in high schools.


and in 2017:

although only around 30% of US physics teachers have a bachelor’s or master’s degree with a major field of study in physics, a narrow majority of that group stated on recent surveys that their physics degrees were awarded by schools or colleges of education.

That says that less than 15% have a degree in the field from a physics institution. Many schools have no qualified physics teachers. Someone else gets assigned the task. My daughter for example just graduated with a degree in physics and was recruited by several schools just in our local area because they had no physics teacher, but she turned them down and went into industry because they couldn't come close on pay.

While you may call "bologna," that simply says that just because you haven't personally experienced something doesn't mean others haven't. That's why I can't discount MITSGUY; my experiences match his in many ways as do that of many of my friends.
Thank you! Very well said.
 
Old 12-02-2018, 10:03 PM
 
8,336 posts, read 7,308,603 times
Reputation: 7885
Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralUSHomeowner View Post
There are several medical school programs in the United States that have a combination Bachelors/MD program. In our case, it was an extremely demanding program that is year round and does it in SIX YEARS instead of eight. No mediocre grades are allowed...or you are out. Day 1 the students are engaging in the medical school learning environment.

My oldest went on to a top 10 residency. Regardless of where one chooses to go to college or medical school, they all have to pass the SAME board tests. The real difference is how much debt you want to go into by going a particular route.

Education is the real equalizer. Rich or Poor... if you study regardless of your school and put in the effort you will do well. Don't let yourself be suckered by the "elite" attitude that you "have to" to go to a certain school or rack up a ridiculous amount of debt to be "someone" it just isn't real life.
Thanks for the reply.

My son's college doesn't have a combined BS/MD program, just an early acceptance program to two med schools. In order to to apply for the programs (has to be done at the end of sophomore year) a student can't have less than a 3.5 GPA & has to take the MCAT before May of their Jr. year. MCAT score can't be less than 510. Only 4 are admitted to each program. Doesn't cut down on anything.
 
Old 12-03-2018, 03:03 PM
 
15,970 posts, read 13,418,679 times
Reputation: 19909
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
That is true in classes that meet in a regular classroom, such as math, English, or social studies. Even if the cap is technically 24 due to union regulations, they can maybe get around it by offering a teacher some other benefit (such as no 1st period class, or not having lunch duty that year) if they agree to a class with more than the limit.
No, again no. If a teacher has a contract, which unionized teachers do. Than they cannot agree away parts of the contract.

Quote:
But in the case of science classes meeting in a science lab, the 24 student cap was treated as a hard cap, since that was all that the lab facilities could accommodate.
Hence why I said that nowadays they would make two sections with less than 24.



Quote:
Other posters have already pointed out that what you posted was false.
No just things are done differently now and have been for about the last 10 years.

Quote:
By the way, "bologna" is a lunch meat, and "Bologna" is a city in Italy. I think the word that you want is "baloney". Then again, you seem to think that since you are a science teacher, that it's not important to use proper grammar and spelling. I'll respond to that thread when I get a chance.
ROLFMAO! I will show this one around the school tomorrow.

Bologna is perfectly acceptable a spelling since the term derives from the sausage.

Maybe you are unaware but sometimes things are spelled differently in different countries. Having gone to prep school here and abroad, I can tell you it is not uncommon to spell it "a bunch of bologna" in the UK.

https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_...sages/440.html

And if anything I think this is excellent example of grammar police nonsense. You assume you and you alone know the only correct way to use a word and there from anyone else is a moron. How's that working out for you?

Quote:
I should also mention that, at least in my school district, at least when I was a student (not sure if this is common or still the case even in my district), every teacher was allowed to teach 1 class per day in a subject that they were not certified for.
Not legal in my state.
 
Old 12-03-2018, 11:07 PM
 
5,070 posts, read 4,648,876 times
Reputation: 3255
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
No, again no. If a teacher has a contract, which unionized teachers do. Than they cannot agree away parts of the contract.
I had plenty of classes (in regular classrooms, not science or computer labs with fixed capacity) with more than 24 students. I had a teacher who had 4 classes in a row (which was normally not allowed) and had 6 classes rather than the usual 5. Perhaps that was to compensate for the fact that I had him for a class with only 13 students, and that was there way to avoid hiring another teacher.

Quote:
Hence why I said that nowadays they would make two sections with less than 24.
And I already explained that they won't do that if it would require hiring another teacher.

Quote:
No just things are done differently now and have been for about the last 10 years.
How things are done depend on the school.

Quote:
ROLFMAO! I will show this one around the school tomorrow.

Bologna is perfectly acceptable a spelling since the term derives from the sausage.

Maybe you are unaware but sometimes things are spelled differently in different countries. Having gone to prep school here and abroad,
You think I'm impressed? I'm not.

Quote:
I can tell you it is not uncommon to spell it "a bunch of bologna" in the UK.

https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_...sages/440.html
Fair enough, since the internet is international.

Quote:
And if anything I think this is excellent example of grammar police nonsense.
Maybe if you weren't so rude to me, I wouldn't feel the need to be the "grammar police" with you.

Quote:
You assume you and you alone know the only correct way to use a word and there from anyone else is a moron. How's that working out for you?
No, I base it on accepted spelling in the US, not based on what I and I alone think is right. I can't fault you for using UK spelling on an international message board, but you'd be wrong to use UK spelling in the American school that you claim to teach at.

Quote:
Not legal in my state.
Are you aware that different states have different laws? Then again, you probably didn't learn that in your UK prep school.
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