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Old 11-29-2018, 12:21 PM
 
15,970 posts, read 13,418,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
No, my school did not have a section of 24 and a section of 2. They'd have a section of 24, and the other 2 students would be stuck in a regular class. They could have, in theory, had 2 classes of 13, but then they may have had to hire more teachers.
LOL!

You don't know that. You were not part of the scheduling committee. You have no idea which sections had which numbers because you were not a member of the staff.

 
Old 11-29-2018, 12:42 PM
 
5,970 posts, read 3,196,383 times
Reputation: 15724
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
LOL!

You don't know that. You were not part of the scheduling committee. You have no idea which sections had which numbers because you were not a member of the staff.
Why is it so hard to believe. In the school I attended and the one my kids attended, you knew which courses made and which didnt. Snd you knew who was and was not in there. Not a state secret or anything. Often limited by available teachers and they aren't going to hire a new teacher just to add a section for a couple of unlucky students. Mine for example had the following sequence in science: chem 1; bio 1; chem 2; and then a choice of either physics or bio 2 for senior year. My year neither class had enough signups by itself to make so they put everyone in bio 2 and no physics. So yes we knew which sections had which numbers.
 
Old 11-29-2018, 01:13 PM
 
1,818 posts, read 432,433 times
Reputation: 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yippeekayay View Post
At first I thought it was Magnet Schools but apparently, those are lotteries instead of "Invites" based on academic grades.

Then there is the Advanced Placement (AP) Programs but not sure if they offer this for Freshmen or if it starts on Junior (Grade 11).

There is also an International Baccalaureate (IB) Program but reading through, it gave me an impression it is more of a cultural learning and appreciation program rather than academic.

I am looking for something straight Academic that invites qualified kids to the Program like the Gifted Programs in Elementary and Middle Schools.

My eldest is completing his Middle School this current school year and finding out High School is a different animal altogether. It didn't help I have no prior experience of HS in America.

TIA.
We also had a Huskins program where students could go to high school for a half day and then drive to the local community college and take classes. Some pathways allowed for a high school senior to graduate with an associate's.
 
Old 11-29-2018, 01:22 PM
 
15,970 posts, read 13,418,679 times
Reputation: 19909
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Why is it so hard to believe. In the school I attended and the one my kids attended, you knew which courses made and which didnt. Snd you knew who was and was not in there. Not a state secret or anything. Often limited by available teachers and they aren't going to hire a new teacher just to add a section for a couple of unlucky students. Mine for example had the following sequence in science: chem 1; bio 1; chem 2; and then a choice of either physics or bio 2 for senior year. My year neither class had enough signups by itself to make so they put everyone in bio 2 and no physics. So yes we knew which sections had which numbers.
Because having been a student, parent, and now a chair of the scheduling committee in multiple schools I see how those same preconceptions I had were complete and utter nonsense.

The notion that there are 26 students qualified from an AP class, and instead of making two sections they just put them in another class is not believable. No teacher has one single class of AP and no other classes. Likely the have a mixture of AP and regular classes. So instead of 5 sections of general whatever and 1 AP they would have 4 sections of the general class and 2 of the AP. It is near universal that classes will run if there are enough students to meet the minimum class size (usually half capacity). For example in my school seniors are usually split into two sections of AP English and two of Honors English. More kids wanted AP than could fit, so there where three sections ranging from 14-20 in size and one largish Honors English 24.

Even in your example, if what he was saying was correct did they hire a new bio teacher to take on the extra students? Was the physics teacher fired?
 
Old 11-29-2018, 02:06 PM
 
5,070 posts, read 4,648,876 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
LOL!

You don't know that. You were not part of the scheduling committee. You have no idea which sections had which numbers because you were not a member of the staff.

Why would I have to be part of the scheduling committee to know that? I know that the science labs accommodated 24 students, and that the high tech computer lab accommodated 20 students. Even if I was not told that info, I know how to count.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Why is it so hard to believe. In the school I attended and the one my kids attended, you knew which courses made and which didnt. Snd you knew who was and was not in there. Not a state secret or anything. Often limited by available teachers and they aren't going to hire a new teacher just to add a section for a couple of unlucky students. Mine for example had the following sequence in science: chem 1; bio 1; chem 2; and then a choice of either physics or bio 2 for senior year. My year neither class had enough signups by itself to make so they put everyone in bio 2 and no physics. So yes we knew which sections had which numbers.
Exactly! Thank you!
 
Old 11-29-2018, 02:07 PM
Status: "Tinsel, not just for decoration" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
32,550 posts, read 39,948,785 times
Reputation: 41213
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
[/i]

I graduated high school in 1997. What do you mean in this context by "nontraditional students".........
I'm surprised you didn't get it since I dropped a couple clues.

" Nontraditional students": Blacks, especially Black males. Hispanics, especially Hispanic males. Girls in AP Math and Sciences not Biology. Students who have permanent residence status. Students who are ESOL. Students who receive FARM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
............

I think the OP had a legitimate cause for concern that his/her son may qualify academically but get a bad lottery number and not be included.
Oh he does. But where he runs aground is that he's not yet a resident in the district. Many, if not most, school systems won't make out of district exceptions for a lottery/admission by testing program.

There are just too many people out there who would game the system.

My (former) school system had, still does, tremendous problems with DC students attending our schools, and that wasn't even for special programs.
 
Old 11-29-2018, 02:12 PM
 
5,755 posts, read 5,205,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
You had to end it with that little ellipse letting us infer the meaning, which was that IB helped them get into law/med school, and it might not have been possible without the IB. I was trying to point out, mostly for the benefit of the OP, who a lot of posters on here seem to have forgotten about, that it is not necessary to get an IB to go to law school, med school, or any other professional school.
To be fair I hadn't inferred that meaning at all from her post. I just thought she was saying IB had given her kids good study skills that carried them far. I never read that to mean other formats can't install good study skills. She's just saying it worked out well for her kids IMO.

But to each his own I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralUSHomeowner View Post
Education is the real equalizer. Rich or Poor... if you study regardless of your school and put in the effort you will do well. Don't let yourself be suckered by the "elite" attitude that you "have to" to go to a certain school or rack up a ridiculous amount of debt to be "someone" it just isn't real life.
It's a bit OT but I wanted to push back on this common educational myth as well. You can study hard but if your school is crappy, you won't get exposed to the same info as those in other environments... so no not everyone can get ahead soley by working hard in school. That said I agree peopel don't have to be in elite environments to be successful.
 
Old 11-29-2018, 02:17 PM
 
5,070 posts, read 4,648,876 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Because having been a student, parent, and now a chair of the scheduling committee in multiple schools I see how those same preconceptions I had were complete and utter nonsense.

The notion that there are 26 students qualified from an AP class, and instead of making two sections they just put them in another class is not believable.
We were explicitly told that the only people in 7th grade honors science were the ones who were in the elementary school gifted and talented. We were explicitly told that there were more than 24 qualified students but fewer than 36, and that there was absolutely no way that they could have added a second section.

Besides myself, of the other students who were denied entry to 7th grade honors science, several attended Ivy League schools, one had the entire periodic table memorized, but none were in the elementary school gifted and talented program. So it was almost certain that we were told the truth.

Quote:
No teacher has one single class of AP and no other classes. Likely the have a mixture of AP and regular classes. So instead of 5 sections of general whatever and 1 AP they would have 4 sections of the general class and 2 of the AP. It is near universal that classes will run if there are enough students to meet the minimum class size (usually half capacity). For example in my school seniors are usually split into two sections of AP English and two of Honors English. More kids wanted AP than could fit, so there where three sections ranging from 14-20 in size and one largish Honors English 24.
Let me give you an example, making the math very easy for you. Suppose a particular grade has 240 students. Science labs accommodate 24 students. Every teacher teaches 5 classes. That means for 240 students, since 240 / 24 = 10, you need 10 sections of science for that grade. Since 10 / 5 = 2, they need to hire 2 science teachers. There will be 1 honors section and 9 regular sections.

Now, suppose 26 students are qualified for honors science. You claim that there will be 2 sections of honors science, each with 13 students. With only 2 teachers, that leaves only 8 sections of regular science. 8 x 24 = 192. However, there will be 240 - 26 = 214 students in regular science. In order to have 2 sections of 13 students each in honors science, they will need to hire an additional science teacher, for 22 (214 - 192 = 22) students. Not going to happen.

So, what happens is, 2 unlucky students who belong in honors science get stuck in regular science. And, they keep 9 sections of regular science and 1 section of honors science, and need only 2 science teachers.

Quote:
Even in your example, if what he was saying was correct did they hire a new bio teacher to take on the extra students? Was the physics teacher fired?
My guess is that they had the physics teacher teach bio. In my high school, science teachers were expected to be able to teach any branch of science, and foreign language teachers were expected to teach any foreign language.
 
Old 11-29-2018, 02:34 PM
 
33 posts, read 8,035 times
Reputation: 92
Everyone is getting wrapped up in "labels" and they shouldn't be. Nor should anyone think that required participation in a gifted program or a magnet school is a do or die, sink or swim, succeed or fail scenario.... IT IS NOT!!! Our kids went to regular schools and we compensated in other ways. They all turned out great with advanced degrees and careers they enjoy and find interesting. They all had different ways of learning, they all had different degrees of ambition, they were all extremely different in every way.

Having a high IQ or NOT having a high IQ or what the school you do or do not attend does not guarantee any particular outcome in life. Parents, you are getting too wrapped up for all the wrong reasons. JMHO and research.

Last edited by CentralUSHomeowner; 11-29-2018 at 03:24 PM..
 
Old 11-29-2018, 02:35 PM
Status: "Epiphany Season" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,535 posts, read 99,858,091 times
Reputation: 32018
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Again, I'm not saying a conspiracy. I'm saying that when there is a resource where demand exceeds supply (in this case, honors / AP / IB courses), some method has to be used to determine who gets the resource and who does not. No matter what system is used, it's going to seem unfair and arbitrary whoever loses. Maybe it's done by a random, behind the scenes lottery. Or maybe it's done by some other criteria that would seem random to whoever loses.


I mentioned many times that my school district had a "gifted and talented" program in elementary school. Who got in was based entirely on the whim of your 2nd grade teacher. There was no other way in. Even if you moved to the district later than 2nd grade, there was no way in. My 2nd grade teacher hated me, and hated boys in general, so I did not get into the gifted and talented program, nor did any boys from my class.


When they selected who was in honors classes in 7th grade, even though I earned all A's in 6th grade science. Normally, my parents never intervened in school, but in this case, they did. They asked the school why I was not in honors science. They were told that there were more than 24 qualified students but fewer than 36, so they used as the tie breaker who was in the elementary school gifted and talented program. That seemed unfair to me, since it effectively meant that a student's 2nd grade teacher was the sole determiner of who was eligible for 7th grade honors science, 5 years later. But I do realize that any other method of reducing the number of students would have seemed just as unfair and arbitrary to whoever lost. My point was that any method is basically a random lottery, since, in this case, I had no control over who my 2nd grade teacher was and had no control over my gender.



I think the OP had a legitimate cause for concern that his/her son may qualify academically but get a bad lottery number and not be included.
Why are you so hung up on this "behind the scenes"/"hidden" stuff? I do not want my name attached to any such notion.
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