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Old Yesterday, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Midwest
3,854 posts, read 6,813,240 times
Reputation: 6090

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnBBQ View Post
Back in the mid-90's my son's doctor retired so we had to look for another pediatrician. We were in the waiting room of the potentially new doctor with two women (possibly sisters?) who were there together with their collective 5 children. The two women were talking with each other, showing each other magazine ads, etc. while the kids literally were climbing the walls and destroying the waiting room. The two women did absolutely nothing to stop the kids.
The nurse called them in first - I think two of the five were sick - and they all went into the same room together. My son and I were called in next and were put in the exam room next to their room. The walls were paper thin and I could hear every word being said. The doctor went into the first room and did his best to examine the two sick kids while the others were bouncing around. Then one of the women said that her kids would not sit still and she wanted to put them on Ritalin. I heard the doctor pause, then he told them "Based on what I have observed, these kids all need some old-fashioned discipline! Neither of you have done any actual parenting from the moment you walked into this office. I will not prescribe drugs to kids who do not need them, just to make life easy for their parents. If you really think any of your children have a medical condition please make an appointment and bring that child back and we will begin the steps to find the issue. In the meantime try being a parent to your children."
I was sold - he was definitely our new doctor!!

^^^^^ AMEN!
Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
I think the basic problem is that schools need kids that can pay attention, turn in work on time and get along with teachers and classmates. When a kid can’t do that—and many kids can’t—parents turn to ritalin and similar drugs. In our own family, this has had to be done. One of the grands was having problems concentrating, learning and also some problems with social skills. This child takes a small dose of ritalin every school day. It has helped a lot. The decision was not made without a lot of thought.

In some cases, I know kids don’t receive solid, stable parenting, and their problems in school stem from their chaotic family life. I don’t know if a drug helps all that much in these sad cases.

I do know that kids have been diagnosed with variations of ADD and ADHD for a couple of generations. So, this is not a new phenomenon. My own kids probably had forms of ADD but were well behaved and managed to get through school successfully. I suspected things, but did NOT want them labeled. My youngest had an especially hard time in the primary grades, but turned around successfully with maturity. Not one teacher ever suggested getting a diagnosis.

I think if you want to condemn teachers or the schools, you should volunteer or at least visit to understand the magnitude of the challenges educators face today. I do think it is OK to be wary of simply prescribing a drug and not following through with other actions. My grand has had tutoring to help with deficiencies. The parents have worked conscientiously to back up the school. But not all parents can or will be that dedicated.

I see this as a flaw in our society as a whole, frankly. It is too easy to try and solve behavior problems with a prescription. But I think there is a lot of shared blame.

And, I am not saying that schools are blameless. But our schools are really microcosms of the culture in which they exist.
Kids need parenting and school discipline.

I daydreamed a lot in elementary school. What was going on in my head was far more interesting than what was going on in class. I remember after an open house, my mother said my teacher asked her, "Is he slow?" Probably not, but I DID daydream a lot. Putting me on Ritalin would not have solved anything and would have made everything worse. Except for the profiteer$$$$.

Today money, wealth, and status have replaced integrity, patriotism, and honesty. Greed has replaced character.

So the pharm industry and many in a "helping" profession i.e. medicine have sold their souls for profits. It's like Washington DC, but on a much smaller scale.
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Old Yesterday, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,470 posts, read 9,173,494 times
Reputation: 18755
As with most medical-related issues, whether physical or emotional, there is not only a wide range of students with issues that can be minor, mild, or severe, but there are also a wide-range of people who treat these conditions.

One of the oddest cases I ever had was a female 7th grade student who was a fraternal twin. She and her brother were perhaps the most seemingly perfect kids I ever worked in. Brilliant, beautiful, perfect manners and genuinely friendly and helpful to others. One day the mother came in and I compliment her heavily about her kids. And she said (paraphrased), "Well, let me tell you the story about [my daughter]. Very early on she was diagnosed as being so defective in terms of her intelligence and behavior that they convinced us to have her institutionalized. And we did. And after about three years one person who worked with her in the institution said that no, she was actually brilliant and needed a drug [it was probably ritilin considering the time] and therapy. By the time she got to our school they had been able to re-dose her drug to a very low level.

These diagnoses are not easy, there is a great deal of variation from patient to patient and diagnostician to diagnostician. It's too bad that some kids need the drugs, but they just do. But it is clear that some physicians turn to quickly to drugs for too many children.
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Old Yesterday, 12:25 PM
Status: "Happy Advent!" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,360 posts, read 99,655,622 times
Reputation: 31857
Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnBBQ View Post
Back in the mid-90's my son's doctor retired so we had to look for another pediatrician. We were in the waiting room of the potentially new doctor with two women (possibly sisters?) who were there together with their collective 5 children. The two women were talking with each other, showing each other magazine ads, etc. while the kids literally were climbing the walls and destroying the waiting room. The two women did absolutely nothing to stop the kids.
The nurse called them in first - I think two of the five were sick - and they all went into the same room together. My son and I were called in next and were put in the exam room next to their room. The walls were paper thin and I could hear every word being said. The doctor went into the first room and did his best to examine the two sick kids while the others were bouncing around. Then one of the women said that her kids would not sit still and she wanted to put them on Ritalin. I heard the doctor pause, then he told them "Based on what I have observed, these kids all need some old-fashioned discipline! Neither of you have done any actual parenting from the moment you walked into this office. I will not prescribe drugs to kids who do not need them, just to make life easy for their parents. If you really think any of your children have a medical condition please make an appointment and bring that child back and we will begin the steps to find the issue. In the meantime try being a parent to your children."
I was sold - he was definitely our new doctor!!
As a pediatric nurse, I have seen scenarios like this too. And yes, our doctors did talk to parents about discipline. But, it's not always a discipline problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
I think the basic problem is that schools need kids that can pay attention, turn in work on time and get along with teachers and classmates. When a kid canít do thatóand many kids canítóparents turn to ritalin and similar drugs. In our own family, this has had to be done. One of the grands was having problems concentrating, learning and also some problems with social skills. This child takes a small dose of ritalin every school day. It has helped a lot. The decision was not made without a lot of thought.

In some cases, I know kids donít receive solid, stable parenting, and their problems in school stem from their chaotic family life. I donít know if a drug helps all that much in these sad cases.

I do know that kids have been diagnosed with variations of ADD and ADHD for a couple of generations. So, this is not a new phenomenon. My own kids probably had forms of ADD but were well behaved and managed to get through school successfully. I suspected things, but did NOT want them labeled. My youngest had an especially hard time in the primary grades, but turned around successfully with maturity. Not one teacher ever suggested getting a diagnosis.

I think if you want to condemn teachers or the schools, you should volunteer or at least visit to understand the magnitude of the challenges educators face today. I do think it is OK to be wary of simply prescribing a drug and not following through with other actions. My grand has had tutoring to help with deficiencies. The parents have worked conscientiously to back up the school. But not all parents can or will be that dedicated.

I see this as a flaw in our society as a whole, frankly. It is too easy to try and solve behavior problems with a prescription. But I think there is a lot of shared blame.

And, I am not saying that schools are blameless. But our schools are really microcosms of the culture in which they exist.
Blaming parents, especially mothers, is a popular pastime. Have you ever heard of "Refrigerator Moms"? These were the moms whose kids were autistic. It was their fault. That theory is now thankfully discredited. Most moms with kids with behavior problems would change their kids if they could.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrig..._mother_theory

I had a cousin, now deceased, who, back in the 50s/early 60s was one of "those kids". Other moms would call my aunt and tell her what awful things my cousin had done while playing with their kids. My mom, my aunt's sister, later said she thought my cousin was probably "hyperactive" a term used in the later 60s/70s. Sadly, my cousin became an alcoholic and died youngish (50s) of his alcoholism.
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Old Yesterday, 12:57 PM
 
4,205 posts, read 1,726,387 times
Reputation: 13317
First of all, it's because the educational establishment has pathologized what should be normal behavior. Children are not intended to rigidly sit in desks eight hours a day and listen to lectures or perform busywork. Children should be able to move around. Children should have opportunities to talk to one another. Children should have recess, not physical education.

Let's look at it this way: Let's say you had a job where you were required to show up at work each day at eight a.m. You moved around the office in highly regimented ways, spending one hour in accounting, one hour in marketing, one hour in the warehouse, and so on. You were not allowed to speak to one another except in five minute periods between sessions. You weren't allowed to go to the bathroom except at specified times. Your break time would be thirty minutes, but even then you were allowed to move around the break room to visit with your fellow employees. After work was over, you were supposed to take more work home with you and do it there, or face a bad review. And if that weren't enough you were expected to join the corporate softball team or glee club to gain brownie points with the company president.

Now. Who would work in a place like that? Yet that's exactly the environment in which we blithely send our kids off every day.

The entire system is a grotesque, stupid anachronism that is designed to make it torture for kids who act like, well, kids. And when a kid doesn't sit still for hours at a time, wants to talk to his or her friends, or whatever, somehow there's something wrong with that child, not the obscenely dumb, dehumanizing process that exists to destroy creativity, curiosity, and critical thinking. In fact, some public health experts think the high percentage of ADHD diagnoses have zip to do with the kids and more to do with the pressure for schools to perform, and how they need a compliant student body for that to happen: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/04/adhd.aspx

What's more, lots of schools think drugs are perfectly acceptable ways to turn kids into docile little sheep in order to make their work easier. It never occurs to them that perhaps the method by which we teach kids is the problem, not the kids themselves. Nope. Educators, who are almost never a very reflective lot, don't ever seem to consider that there's perhaps a better way.


I had teachers inform me that my boys needed ADD medicine, as if they had any qualifications to diagnose issues or prescribe medication. Mind you, they weren't discipline problems. They did well in the subjects that they enjoyed. They just didn't like the tedium that is 90% of all classroom procedure. My wife took it to heart and took my older son to the doctor. He basically asked a couple of questions and scribbled out an Adderall prescription. After about a month, I threw the bottle away for the effect it was having on my son. He had become lethargic and joyless. Today? He's a college student who killed it on the ACT and the SAT, is a prolific reader, and makes good grades. I'm fairly certain that he wouldn't be the same happy person he is today if we had put him on what were essentially mind control drugs.


As far as ADHD or ADD being real-deal syndromes, sure. I buy that. But unfortunately, we've created a system that classifies kids as ADHD or ADD with the flimsiest of criteria. In my mind, it's like people who claim to be gluten intolerant. A recent study found that 86 percent of all people who thought they were gluten intolerant weren't. Same kind of thing.

Last edited by MinivanDriver; Yesterday at 01:14 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 01:26 PM
Status: "Happy Advent!" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,360 posts, read 99,655,622 times
Reputation: 31857
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
First of all, it's because the educational establishment has pathologized what should be normal behavior. Children are not intended to rigidly sit in desks eight hours a day and listen to lectures or perform busywork. Children should be able to move around. Children should have opportunities to talk to one another. Children should have recess, not physical education.

Let's look at it this way: Let's say you had a job where you were required to show up at work each day at eight a.m. You moved around the office in highly regimented ways, spending one hour in accounting, one hour in marketing, one hour in the warehouse, and so on. You were not allowed to speak to one another except in five minute periods between sessions. You weren't allowed to go to the bathroom except at specified times. Your break time would be thirty minutes, but even then you were allowed to move around the break room to visit with your fellow employees. After work was over, you were supposed to take more work home with you and do it there, or face a bad review. And if that weren't enough you were expected to join the corporate softball team or glee club to gain brownie points with the company president.

Now. Who would work in a place like that? Yet that's exactly the environment in which we blithely send our kids off every day.

The entire system is a grotesque, stupid anachronism that is designed to make it torture for kids who act like, well, kids. And when a kid doesn't sit still for hours at a time, wants to talk to his or her friends, or whatever, somehow there's something wrong with that child, not the obscenely dumb, dehumanizing process that exists to destroy creativity, curiosity, and critical thinking. In fact, some public health experts think the high percentage of ADHD diagnoses have zip to do with the kids and more to do with the pressure for schools to perform, and how they need a compliant student body for that to happen: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/04/adhd.aspx

What's more, lots of schools think drugs are perfectly acceptable ways to turn kids into docile little sheep in order to make their work easier. It never occurs to them that perhaps the method by which we teach kids is the problem, not the kids themselves. Nope. Educators, who are almost never a very reflective lot, don't ever seem to consider that there's perhaps a better way.


I had teachers inform me that my boys needed ADD medicine, as if they had any qualifications to diagnose issues or prescribe medication. Mind you, they weren't discipline problems. They did well in the subjects that they enjoyed. They just didn't like the tedium that is 90% of all classroom procedure. My wife took it to heart and took my older son to the doctor. He basically asked a couple of questions and scribbled out an Adderall prescription. After about a month, I threw the bottle away for the effect it was having on my son. He had become lethargic and joyless. Today? He's a college student who killed it on the ACT and the SAT, is a prolific reader, and makes good grades. I'm fairly certain that he wouldn't be the same happy person he is today if we had put him on what were essentially mind control drugs.


As far as ADHD or ADD being real-deal syndromes, sure. I buy that. But unfortunately, we've created a system that classifies kids as ADHD or ADD with the flimsiest of criteria. In my mind, it's like people who claim to be gluten intolerant. A recent study found that 86 percent of all people who thought they were gluten intolerant weren't. Same kind of thing.

I don't think you've seen kids with real ADD/ADHD if you think that. And for all one hears about kids being expected to "rigidly sit in desks eight hours a day and listen to lectures or perform busywork", that is not what is going on in classrooms in the US, not even in high school where I'll agree there is more sitting and listening to lectures. Elementary school (where most cases of ADD/ADHD are diagnosed) isn't even in session eight hours a day! In my district it's 6 1/2 hours inclusive, meaning including lunch, which is about 30 minutes, including recess. Kids also get a morning recess. It's been a while since I've been in an elementary classroom, but when I was, the kids were moving about a lot and had a lot more freedom than I ever did in elementary school in the 50s. What's wrong with PE? Kids can learn some things they don't learn in free play, and I see a place for both.

Comparing school to employment is apples to oranges. And I never heard of kids being forced to join clubs or teams.

Teachers should not be "prescribing" meds or dis-prescribing them either. I have known teachers who did the latter, as far back as the early 70s.

Good on your son, but as you know, "it might have been" has no validity.
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Old Yesterday, 01:36 PM
 
4,205 posts, read 1,726,387 times
Reputation: 13317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I don't think you've seen kids with real ADD/ADHD if you think that. And for all one hears about kids being expected to "rigidly sit in desks eight hours a day and listen to lectures or perform busywork", that is not what is going on in classrooms in the US, not even in high school where I'll agree there is more sitting and listening to lectures. Elementary school (where most cases of ADD/ADHD are diagnosed) isn't even in session eight hours a day! In my district it's 6 1/2 hours inclusive, meaning including lunch, which is about 30 minutes, including recess. Kids also get a morning recess. It's been a while since I've been in an elementary classroom, but when I was, the kids were moving about a lot and had a lot more freedom than I ever did in elementary school in the 50s. What's wrong with PE? Kids can learn some things they don't learn in free play, and I see a place for both.

Comparing school to employment is apples to oranges. And I never heard of kids being forced to join clubs or teams.

Teachers should not be "prescribing" meds or dis-prescribing them either. I have known teachers who did the latter, as far back as the early 70s.

Good on your son, but as you know, "it might have been" has no validity.

Way to completely miss my point. The pressure is to diagnose ADHD and ADD when none exists. That study I cited raised the very same questions. There are plenty of theorists out there who are beginning to question the entire dysfunctional system of how we educate our children, from Ken Robinson on.



And good for you regarding your school system, but there are plenty out there where that is exactly what happens. My kids school convened at 7:45 and didn't let out until 3:20, with at least a couple of hours of homework after that. Sports and extracurricular activities, while not required, are heavily encouraged.



As for PE, why is it necessary? It is nothing more than regimentation. Let the kids unwind in the middle of the day.
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Old Yesterday, 02:13 PM
 
1,514 posts, read 1,423,587 times
Reputation: 2031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwatted Wabbit View Post
^^^^^ AMEN!


Kids need parenting and school discipline.

I daydreamed a lot in elementary school. What was going on in my head was far more interesting than what was going on in class. I remember after an open house, my mother said my teacher asked her, "Is he slow?" Probably not, but I DID daydream a lot. Putting me on Ritalin would not have solved anything and would have made everything worse. Except for the profiteer$$$$.

Today money, wealth, and status have replaced integrity, patriotism, and honesty. Greed has replaced character.

So the pharm industry and many in a "helping" profession i.e. medicine have sold their souls for profits. It's like Washington DC, but on a much smaller scale.

Actually, excessive day dreaming is a symptom of inattentive ADD. You may have very well been well served by medication to help you focus.
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Old Yesterday, 04:29 PM
 
15,421 posts, read 17,059,241 times
Reputation: 15133
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyWifiGoesSlow View Post
Those studies are quite wrong.


Lancet Psychiatry Needs to Retract the ADHD-Enigma Study
MIA Report: Authorsí conclusion that individuals with ADHD have smaller brains is belied by their own data





Read more, alot more: https://www.madinamerica.com/2017/04...-enigma-study/
I don't know that their brains are smaller, but the MRIs show clear differences. There are differences in the prefrontal cortex.

Symptoms from the Mayo Clinic
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/syc-20350889

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...9037981200013X

Quote:
It provides answers based on the most recent meta-analyses and systematic reviews, as well as additional relevant original studies. Empirical findings from neurobiological research into ADHD reflect a shift in the conceptualisation of this disorder from simple theoretical views of a few isolated dysfunctions to more complex models integrating the heterogeneity of the clinical manifestations of ADHD. Thus, findings from structural and functional neuroimaging suggest the involvement of developmentally abnormal brain networks related to cognition, attention, emotion and sensorimotor functions. Brain functioning alterations are confirmed by neurophysiological findings, showing that individuals with ADHD have elevated theta/beta power ratios, and less pronounced responses and longer latencies of event-related potentials, compared with controls
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi....2012.11101521

Quote:
The authors performed a comprehensive meta-analysis of task-based functional MRI studies of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD).

Last edited by nana053; Yesterday at 04:42 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Virginia
7,935 posts, read 12,264,060 times
Reputation: 3592
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
First of all, it's because the educational establishment has pathologized what should be normal behavior. Children are not intended to rigidly sit in desks eight hours a day and listen to lectures or perform busywork. Children should be able to move around. Children should have opportunities to talk to one another. Children should have recess, not physical education.

Let's look at it this way: Let's say you had a job where you were required to show up at work each day at eight a.m. You moved around the office in highly regimented ways, spending one hour in accounting, one hour in marketing, one hour in the warehouse, and so on. You were not allowed to speak to one another except in five minute periods between sessions. You weren't allowed to go to the bathroom except at specified times. Your break time would be thirty minutes, but even then you were allowed to move around the break room to visit with your fellow employees. After work was over, you were supposed to take more work home with you and do it there, or face a bad review. And if that weren't enough you were expected to join the corporate softball team or glee club to gain brownie points with the company president.

Now. Who would work in a place like that? Yet that's exactly the environment in which we blithely send our kids off every day.
I have been teaching elementary students for 26 years and I canít think of a class that Iíve ever seen like that. Thatís not even a close depiction, especially by todayís standards.
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Old Yesterday, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Texas
7,219 posts, read 2,631,321 times
Reputation: 15278
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
Really irritated me because being allergic was a bandwagon back then as someone who carries an epipen (but doesn't talk about it in real life and only those closest to me know because it's my problem, not everyone else's), because that makes it harder for people with true allergy problems to be taken seriously.
I think you're right it does make it harder for people with true allergy problems to be taken seriously. I know a mom who says her son is allergic to peanuts and she's hyper vigilant about making sure the school doesn't have nut products anywhere. She got angry at them for have snicker candy bars in a candy dish on the desk in the front office. She said one whiff of peanuts would kill her son. Well, I was at her house one time and noticed snicker and reese's candy wrappers all over the place. She said she bought it on sale after Halloween. Wouldn't that be dangerous to have around her son? He came to my house one time, so I asked her if he has an epi pen and she said no, then she admitted his allergies weren't really "that bad." Seems like she only wanted to apply her strict no-nut standards to everyone else but herself. I admit to being totally confused.
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