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Old 12-16-2018, 03:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobspez View Post
Working with adults at a community center or night school is something she had success with, until she left the lesson plan behind and tried to improvise. The job had everything she has been asking for.. a script, structure, immigrants who respected the teacher, and presumably a paycheck. Something more is at work here. She says she is lazy, unmotivated. I think she also lives at home, so really doesn't have to do anything. I'm retired with a pension and have no desire to do anything work related either. I'm happy to pursue hobbies and spend time on forums and youtube. But she is retired at home as well. It's surprising how motivated and energetic you get when you are cold and hungry and on your own with a few dollars left and nothing coming in. I'm afraid this is another one of those CD threads that is going nowhere. A person venting with no necessity to take any advice or change in any way.
It wasnt a full time job, it was a part time job that began as a volunteer position, and it was at a community center. She quit because it wasn’t enough to live on and had no benefits.
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Old 12-16-2018, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Columbia MO
1,527 posts, read 1,780,448 times
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somebody else has probably already posted this, but the internet is full of people who analyze different ways of learning foreign languages. I settled on Michael Thomas for learning Spanish and used my daily 45 minute-each-way commute to speak along with the lessons, which is how one learns with Michel Thomas. I worked through levels 1 and 2. I can understand about half to 2/3 of the shows on Telemundo, which means I can pretty much understand what's going on. Like you, I had a problem sticking with anything, but I took the podcast app off my phone and canceled satellite radio to cut down on the choices.I used teh CDs; some people don't like the Audible or iPhone apps. Right now the beginning course is $57 on amazon and the intermediate course (the only other level available there) is $70.

You gotta put in the time and do the work, though.
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Old 12-16-2018, 05:33 PM
 
4,343 posts, read 3,384,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
It wasnt a full time job, it was a part time job that began as a volunteer position, and it was at a community center. She quit because it wasn’t enough to live on and had no benefits.
Not quite true. I didn't quit; the program eventually closed because we weren't getting enough students to justify staying open. It is true that I wasn't making a lot of money doing it, but it was an evening job that wasn't interfering with anything else, and I felt like I was at least learning a lot, using my degree, helping the community, and gaining experience. I did leave my day job subbing, though, again, voluntarily, to take a better, well better paying, job at the youth center. The part about kids "eating me alive" didn't really change, though.

After serving at the youth center, which was an at-will contract where I could have been fired at any time, for around three years. (I did report my disability, though, and even had a doctor write my employer a letter, so that might have helped). Things weren't going great there, either, because the kids used my weaknesses against me to write complaints that eventually made my job much more difficult; at the end of things, I was basically a highly-paid teacher's aide, but I was never let go. I resigned, again voluntarily, to take an even better, well again better paying, job in Texas. The principal liked the experience and qualifications listed on my resume, liked what she heard in the interview, and maybe heard from my dad's friends that I would be a good hiring choice, so she gave me a job teaching middle school. I jumped at the opportunity because I thought it was a chance to earn a bit more respect, not to mention money. Plus, it was close to where my dad lived.

There were a lot of things I wasn't already trained to do, though, so I failed. I think I mainly failed because I didn't really know how to or,wasn't comfortable with how to, ask questions or get help. I was essentially a new teacher as the positions I held before came with some sort of supervisor working closely with me. I felt like they thought I should already know, and I couldn't get past the idea that bringing to their attention that I didn't already know how to do my job or needed additional assistance understanding exactly what they wanted me to do, was unacceptable. I think I panicked, though, because after I had a chance to think about it and learn my way around, which took me months, not days, but I think it was because I was trying to learn everything on my own, I figured out that most of what I needed to know was reasonable and probably not related to teaching experience or level of expertise at all. In other words, it was perfectly fine to bring these concerns to my boss, but I didn't know how to explain what I needed, so I stayed "in the dark" about the whole situation and continued to perform poorly.

I was so upset about my performance on this particular job that I signed up with vocational rehabilitation services to find out what was wrong, because i felt like I had been cheated. I felt like no one actually trained me to do a job that I initially loved--initially, the kids were well behaved, my coworkers were nice, and my boss seemed understanding. Yes, they put people in my classroom, but I didn't know what I needed, so of course I couldn't tell them. My guess is they eventually thought they made a bad hiring choice when my initial training seemed ineffective and eventually thought that training me wasn't worth it, but maybe that's not what happened. Maybe I just never told them what I needed to begin with? To begin with, I didn't want to seem arrogant or act like I "knew everything," because I was pretty sure that would guarantee me even less help.I also didn't want to solidify the idea that they made a bad hiring choice, even though I was pretty sure my performance made them suspect it, because I thought they might look for an excuse to get rid of me for under performance, which is hard for contracted employees but not impossible.

As you can probably tell, this is frustrating to me. That teaching job was the ideal setting because there was a head teacher who really knew what she was doing, and I wanted to learn from her, but I couldn't because of these stupid communication difficulties. I even told her I "might have mild autism." Nothing changed! She eventually stopped helping me and sort of developed kind of an attitude toward me. I continued asking her for advice, and her response was something to the effect of, "why? you didn't take it when I offered it to you in the first place."

Yeah, in summary, it seems I can't really do a teaching job without some form of supervision. There are too many things that go on in a classroom that I miss. Given the right support, I can plan lessons, but there's more to being a teacher than that, and I'm not going to ask questions about how to do my job if I don't understand something in certain contexts where I feel like it's inappropriate, and I tend to feel like things are "inappropriate" when they are unfamiliar to me and I have no template for them.

I understand that people who can't or don't work are viewed as worthless by society, so I've tried to justify long unemployment periods by going back to school. None of this is working at this point, though. If I can't think of any other options, including getting help from vocational rehabilitation services, I might go back to school if I can find a way to finance it, but that's only a temporary fix.

It doesn't help that I'm also mildly obsessed with the idea of teaching. I'm amazed that I somehow completed six years of college and nearly a full year worth of student teaching (at various schools) and never learned how to properly do the job! Yeah, I'm pretty upset. I feel like the college I went to took my money, taught me a bunch of theories, and left me on my own, but I'm also aware that other students graduated from the same program I did and became competent professionals. I keep asking asking myself, "what in world is wrong with me?" How am I able to go to school and earn straight A's, find my name on the dean's list almost every semester, tutor other graduate students, and still fail to keep a job that requires me to know and be able to do so much less than what I've demonstrated? I feel like I need a degree from Harvard or Yale or something just to prove I'm competent, but I don't have enough money for that. I feel like in my case college was a waste of time. It gave me the idea that I could do more than I actually can do. The courses were too easy, and the work they had me do in no way at all resembled the real world. At least this little piece of paper makes it easier to find a job, for most people. My employment history speaks volumes more, though.

Initially, I went to college to avoid harassment at lower paying jobs, like waiting tables. I couldn't hold down those jobs anyway, so I thought I needed another plan. I must have really made my employers unhappy, too, because one job fired me when I needed to pay for an apartment and take care of myself. My professors assured me that I was experiencing harassment because I wasn't working as a professional, and once I became a professional, like a teacher for instance, the harassment would stop. While it got better, it never completely "stopped," especially not from the kids' end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrano View Post
somebody else has probably already posted this, but the internet is full of people who analyze different ways of learning foreign languages. I settled on Michael Thomas for learning Spanish and used my daily 45 minute-each-way commute to speak along with the lessons, which is how one learns with Michel Thomas. I worked through levels 1 and 2. I can understand about half to 2/3 of the shows on Telemundo, which means I can pretty much understand what's going on. Like you, I had a problem sticking with anything, but I took the podcast app off my phone and canceled satellite radio to cut down on the choices.I used teh CDs; some people don't like the Audible or iPhone apps. Right now the beginning course is $57 on amazon and the intermediate course (the only other level available there) is $70.

You gotta put in the time and do the work, though.
Right now, I can write simple phrases, read books using beginner language, and string together "survival" and "polite" phrases. I would say that listening is probably my strongest area, as I can watch TV programs and get the gist of what they are saying, especially educational programs that focus on topics I already have some familiarity with.

My weak point is grammar, I think, and it changes how I interpret sentences when I read them.

I don't think these rudimentary skills were gained from teaching myself, though, but rather the year of foreign language I took in college. Whatever approach they used with me at school was apparently effective, but I'm not sure if it would be effective if I tried to recreate the method for self study. Self study is more like test prep and involves a lot of cutting corners, because you aren't the expert. You can only do as much as the textbook / manual / workbook teaches.

I'm apparently really good at job interviews, though, because someone called and tried to offer me a job teaching Spanish (a language I barely know), after I had already taken the middle school job. I'm no con artist, and I never told them I knew Spanish fluently or could teach it. In fact, I made it a point during my job interview to tell the principal that I was not fluent and couldn't translate.

Last edited by krmb; 12-16-2018 at 07:00 PM..
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Old 12-16-2018, 07:32 PM
 
1,594 posts, read 664,905 times
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Originally Posted by krmb View Post
... I think I mainly failed because I didn't really know how to or,wasn't comfortable with how to, ask questions or get help... .
On any new job, no one knows what you don't know except you. It's up to you to find out by asking questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krmb View Post

...I felt like no one actually trained me to do a job that I initially loved--initially, the kids were well behaved, my coworkers were nice, and my boss seemed understanding.
Work is not school or the army. They don't train you from scratch. You get hired with the expectation you can do the job, figure out what is needed, ask questions if necessary and get up to speed. It's up to you to get up to speed by seeking out answers and resources, not up to them to figure out your deficiencies and help you fix them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krmb View Post
She eventually stopped helping me and sort of developed kind of an attitude toward me. I continued asking her for advice, and her response was something to the effect of, "why? you didn't take it when I offered it to you in the first place."
This is pretty much the case. You seem to know your shortcomings but have excuses for not addressing them based on your fears or unwillingness or inability to do what is necessary. I'm pretty sure you haven't and won't follow any adivice given here by numerous posters. For every piece of advice you have a reason why you are unwilling or unable to follow it. You want to be a teacher but can't do the job without a coach guiding you. That doesn't happen at work. You would have to pay a coach double your salary to stand next to you and tell you what to do next. It's absurd. You quit jobs you are handling for jobs paying more that you can't handle. People get respect or lack of respect in any job, menial or high, based on the job they do, not their title or what they get paid. People who deliver take out food get respect and thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krmb View Post
I'm amazed that I somehow completed six years of college and nearly a full year worth of student teaching (at various schools) and never learned how to properly do the job! Yeah, I'm pretty upset. I feel like the college I went to took my money, taught me a bunch of theories, and left me on my own, but I'm also aware that other students graduated from the same program I did and became competent professionals.
I've got a BA, and an MBA and learned absolutely nothing that helped me in the world of work. Everything was learned on the job. That's the case with any non technical job and most technical jobs as well. That's the difference between school and work. At school you master the curriculum and get a diploma that gets you a job interview. At work you are supposed to be making money for the employer so you get some instructions, write them down and figure the rest out for yourself. You figure out what the job is and get it done. They are not there to help you. You are there to help them.
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:17 PM
 
Location: America's Expensive Toilet
1,071 posts, read 702,700 times
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Even with being in close proximity to Mexico, unless you interact with Spanish speakers on a daily basis, no you don't really *need* to learn Spanish. From past experience with Spanish in school (roughly 2-3 years of it at a beginning/intermediate level), the language and grammar are very similar to English except more verb congregation and genders for different words. I'm a believer that if you don't use it, you'll lose it - part of the reason I didn't get far with some languages I learned. My spouse speaks Chinese but rarely speaks it in the house. All our friends speak English fluently, so I have little motivation to REALLY learn it, even if my in-laws would like me to speak their native language.

Coding and foreign languages both require many hours of study to master. It's said you need to put in 100,000 hours into a skill to master it. So with that said, if you're serious about learning a coding or foreign language, I urge you to pick one to focus on for the time being. Really devote to it and set small goals to meet every couple of weeks to keep yourself on track. It might take a year or more depending on how fluent you want to be. Once you hit your proficiency goal then you might consider learning the other skill. But trying to do too many things at once is a sure fire way to fall off the wagon early on.
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:34 PM
 
4,343 posts, read 3,384,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobspez View Post
On any new job, no one knows what you don't know except you. It's up to you to find out by asking questions.



Work is not school or the army. They don't train you from scratch. You get hired with the expectation you can do the job, figure out what is needed, ask questions if necessary and get up to speed. It's up to you to get up to speed by seeking out answers and resources, not up to them to figure out your deficiencies and help you fix them.



This is pretty much the case. You seem to know your shortcomings but have excuses for not addressing them based on your fears or unwillingness or inability to do what is necessary. I'm pretty sure you haven't and won't follow any adivice given here by numerous posters. For every piece of advice you have a reason why you are unwilling or unable to follow it. You want to be a teacher but can't do the job without a coach guiding you. That doesn't happen at work. You would have to pay a coach double your salary to stand next to you and tell you what to do next. It's absurd. You quit jobs you are handling for jobs paying more that you can't handle. People get respect or lack of respect in any job, menial or high, based on the job they do, not their title or what they get paid. People who deliver take out food get respect and thanks.



I've got a BA, and an MBA and learned absolutely nothing that helped me in the world of work. Everything was learned on the job. That's the case with any non technical job and most technical jobs as well. That's the difference between school and work. At school you master the curriculum and get a diploma that gets you a job interview. At work you are supposed to be making money for the employer so you get some instructions, write them down and figure the rest out for yourself. You figure out what the job is and get it done. They are not there to help you. You are there to help them.
Everything you've said here is true. It is much better to have a job you can actually do, regardless of what the wages are. That's why I signed up for help from vocational rehabilitation. My whole perspective on work is wrong. I'm treating it like school. I didn't think this was a problem until I learned the hard way how different the two really are. It's not that I'm not willing to learn; it's just that that's not always the only expectation. I need to learn how to keep up with the rest of it. I agree that I need to develop a new strategy and set my sights lower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by likealady View Post
Even with being in close proximity to Mexico, unless you interact with Spanish speakers on a daily basis, no you don't really *need* to learn Spanish. From past experience with Spanish in school (roughly 2-3 years of it at a beginning/intermediate level), the language and grammar are very similar to English except more verb congregation and genders for different words. I'm a believer that if you don't use it, you'll lose it - part of the reason I didn't get far with some languages I learned. My spouse speaks Chinese but rarely speaks it in the house. All our friends speak English fluently, so I have little motivation to REALLY learn it, even if my in-laws would like me to speak their native language.

Coding and foreign languages both require many hours of study to master. It's said you need to put in 100,000 hours into a skill to master it. So with that said, if you're serious about learning a coding or foreign language, I urge you to pick one to focus on for the time being. Really devote to it and set small goals to meet every couple of weeks to keep yourself on track. It might take a year or more depending on how fluent you want to be. Once you hit your proficiency goal then you might consider learning the other skill. But trying to do too many things at once is a sure fire way to fall off the wagon early on.
I think that's probably the main problem. I haven't stuck with one coding language, and I haven't been practicing foreign language regularly. I don't think I'm going to make excuses. I think I'm going to come up with a plan and try it. If it doesn't work, and I'm still interested, I guess I'll try something else until I come up with something that works. I'm not used to doing that and normally equate it all with frustration or "not getting anything done," but I guess it's a skill I need to get familiar with. You sometimes don't have all of the answers and then you have to search for them. I still think it's okay for me to get frustrated when things like this happen on the job, though, as it slows everything down and puts a lot of pressure on everyone.

I guess maybe a lot of my habits and attitudes toward work come directly from what I learned as a kid at school. "If you don't study hard and really learn this subject, you'll be stuck as a janitor, burger flipper, etc., for the rest of your life," (insinuating that those were undesirable positions that could be escaped with better education) or "if you need help, ask. Don't try to do it by yourself." (indicating that things were supposed to be simple and straight-forward, not frustrating. If you were frustrated or didn't know the answer, you were probably doing something wrong). Those things school teachers say to kids sometimes really stick with them. I guess I shouldn't have taken those as hard-coded words to live by, though. I just got the impression that was the way people view things, and I've always had a terrible habit of not asking questions to get clarification and acting like I understand things when I don't. It was a coping mechanism to survive life as a student, and it even worked in college.

I guess the "real world" simply follows different rules than school, though, and I really think that the only true "undesirable" positions are jobs that the person hired can't effectively do. That's a bit of a problem for me, though, because with only a few exceptions, I've almost never held a job I didn't have some trouble with.

Before college:

Food service jobs that I didn't last more than a few months on. I suffered a lot of harassment from my coworkers.

During college:

Substitute teaching jobs that sometimes sent me home crying. It seemed like no matter what I tried, I couldn't do a good job, and the kids hated me. I was told that it was just a bad position, but I don't think that was it exactly.

After college:

A job as an ESL teacher that was going well enough while the head teacher was there to help me plan my lessons. As long as I stuck to the script, I was fine. If I deviated from it, though, I often ran into trouble, so I tried not to deviate from it. She retired, though, and none of her overseers saw my shortcomings, so they left me in charge. I don't think I did as well as when she was there, but attendance dropped off anyway, so I didn't have that responsibility very long after that.

A job at the youth center where I was frequently complained on by students and reprimanded. I apparently didn't know how to "stand up for myself," or something.

A teaching position at a small suburban Texas middle school where I thought I would have a great time but after I was still lost after two or three weeks of initial training, things started changing. I had nearly the same problems I had with the kids at the youth center, only these were nicer kids so the behavior problems were much milder. I also had to deal, perhaps unsuccessfully, with the parents.

I was fairly upset that I failed this job because the conditions were ideal; I couldn't blame my bad performance on poor administration, bad kids, lazy parents, bad school system, un-involved community, etc.; everything was almost perfect. I still failed. This was a direct reflection on me and brought attention to my lack of prerequisite training to do the job correctly. My guess is I learned things on that job that I should have learned during student teaching.

--

Yeah, it took me a while to acknowledge it, but this looks like a pattern. I'm usually too afraid to communicate with my bosses, feel like an imposter, pretend to understand things that I don't, and end up not performing well on the job. I don't know why I do this. I think it's related to a habit I have of not interacting with people in situations / ways I'm unsure about. This is a coping mechanism that I learned as child to appear "normal" and a habit that I need to break. This sounds ridiculous describing it in writing, but it makes sense, at least to me, in the context of dealing with an employer who does not know I have a disability and will possibly act unfavorably toward me if s/he believes I'm not catching on to the job quickly enough or whatever else people assume when employees make unjustifiable requests. I guess I should just mention that I have a mild disability on my next job application.

I'm starting to think that employers just automatically assume that people who show symptoms of mild autism are bad hires. It makes me feel like finding a position where i can actually contribute might not be that easy, so I at least need a lot of desirable skills on my resume. Maybe they'll overlook my shortcomings then?

Last edited by krmb; 12-16-2018 at 10:03 PM..
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Old 12-17-2018, 05:21 AM
 
9,941 posts, read 7,693,181 times
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Originally Posted by krmb View Post
Yeah, I think I got some aptitude testing from the vocational rehab program. I don't think there was anything in way of how I act during unstructured social interaction, though. It was mostly a coordination test, lifting test, general knowledge, response to distractions, and non-verbal IQ test. My counselor said that I did fairly well, but I did qualify for job support (someone tries to help match me with a job they think will be a good fit). I haven't seen my scores. I also know that I did not do that well during the response to distractions portion; I was so focused on everything else going on in the room that I could hardly focus on the questions.

The counselor seems knowledgeable, and I trust her judgement. It just seems to be taking a long time, though. I've been waiting on these people since when i applied in June.
Waiting for what? More assessments? Analysis? Placement?
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Old 12-17-2018, 10:06 AM
 
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Maybe. I just think it's kind of weird that I can learn things fairly easily in a classroom environment that has the structure, including real online classes (not the 'life-time access' courses that are found for low cost on websites, as there's no schedule, no deadline, no grading, no method, no credit to be earned, and no real reason to complete the coursework) but I almost feel like it's a lost cause without it. I can't seem to remember the things I'm trying to learn, and it's really frustrating to me.

Maybe you're right. Maybe the problems and frustration I'm experiencing teaching myself are related to not knowing how to teach others without structure. I'm lost on how to plan my own curriculum, what structures to use to best explain the material, where to find good resources, coming up with a realistic schedule, etc. It means that I may spend a few hours trying to gather resources, figure out my schedule, and doing other things that are already done for me in a classroom setting, and that's before I even try to learn anything!

Point taken, I guess. I can't "be my own teacher," so I guess I can't be anyone's teacher. Those Education classes missed helping me learn a big part of the job!

Is this a training issue, though, or is this just how my brain works? When I don't know how to do something, I eventually stop looking for solutions and give up. It's not worth dealing with all of the frustration.

Besides, with no realistic schedule, I can't make much progress anyway.

I have the same issue with learning. I am motivated and tentative enough to excel in classroom learning style but when it comes to teaching myself, I can't learn anything to save my life. I have learned this the hard way when I have given myself time to self teach and failed. Even for gym I prefer workout class instead of doing it on my own. I gave up on "teaching myself" anything and look for classroom setting as much as possible. I just do better when there is outside force motivating me & keeping me accountable for my actions
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Old 12-23-2018, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,641 posts, read 44,047,977 times
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I can't offer much advice on your personal learning style or habits, but as far as access and availability go - have you checked with your local library for their resources? The library system I work for has a TON of free (to card-holders) resources, from Rosetta Stone to Lydia, and even one-on-one online tutoring. So I'd start there.
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Old 12-27-2018, 09:30 PM
 
799 posts, read 181,490 times
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Originally Posted by krmb View Post
I studied to be a teacher, so, on paper, teaching myself shouldn't be a problem, and maybe I'm just lazy and don't want to devote the time and energy to creating my own self-study curriculum while I'm between jobs, but it seems like, regardless of how interested I claim I am in learning something, I simply cannot teach it to myself.
Re-write:

Quote:
I studied to be a teacher. So on paper, teaching myself shouldn't be a problem. Maybe I'm just lazy and don't want to devote the time and energy to creating my own self-study curriculum. I'm between jobs. It seems regardless of how interested I claim I am in learning something, I simply cannot teach it to myself.
That's easier to read.

To answer your question. The goal of instruction is to enable the student the ability to teach themselves.

If you can't teach yourself, then your education on how to do this is lacking in some area. But most likely the reason is you lack significant motivation. Meaning that if you don't achieve this goal there is no harsh outcome for you. You aren't doing this because you enjoy it, but you think of it as something you have to do. If you want to force yourself to do something, then you need to gain leverage on yourself to do that. Only you can answer what that might be, since none of us here know you. This is another reason why some prefer to attend at workshop in whatever it is they want to learn about then simply get the book. They need someone else to provide the structure.
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