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Old 02-23-2019, 08:28 AM
 
964 posts, read 193,453 times
Reputation: 1646

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CortezC View Post
OP. I agree with you, but for every parent complaining about homework, there are two parents who want more. They want to get their money's worth out of the public education system, plus it keeps their kids out of their hair, and/or they want their kids to be on top all the time.
Very true.

For those who do not believe in homework, read this essay: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior http://www.psychology.sunysb.edu/hwa...%20mothers.pdf

Which begins:

Quote:
A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:
  • attend a sleepover
  • have a play date
  • be in a school play
  • complain about not being in a school play
  • watch TV or play computer games
  • choose their own extracurricular activities
  • get any grade less than an A
  • not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama
  • play any instrument other than the piano or violin
  • not play the piano or violin.

Our daughter grew up in Silicon Valley in a competitive public school district. The parents (both moms and dads) of her friends and peers were typically educated in China, and came to the USA to earn their PhDs in electrical engineering, chemical engineering, materials science, mechanical engineering, solid state physics, and other technical disciplines. It was the deep end of the gene pool.

It was very common for stay-at-home moms (who were PhD scientists) to come to school just before recess, and instead of letting their children go out and play on the blacktop & jungle gym, take their children into the library for drill and kill. After school, of course, all took their kids to Kumon centers https://www.kumon.com/resources/what...-kumon-method/.

After 1st grade, for a variety of reasons, we transferred her to private school, which was also heavily academic. I recall her high school graduating class had 12% matriculate as freshman at MIT, with well over 3/4 of the graduates heading to the Ivy League, Stanford, Berkeley, Chicago, CalTech, Johns Hopkins and Northwestern; most of the rest went to liberal arts colleges such as Claremont McKenna, Amherst, and the like. Indeed, many of the kids had the so-called HYPS syndrome: if they did not gain acceptance to Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Stanford, it was somehow an insult against their ancestors.

It was the deep end of the gene pool. And there was always hours and hours of homework - even in 2nd grade. In addition to reinforcing and applying concepts taught during the day, homework reinforces things that are general skills - delayed gratification (playtime comes only when schoolwork is done), and reinforced school-taught organizational skills, study skills, focus, etc.

The above isn't for every kid, of course. Unfortunately, children do not come with instruction manuals, so parents have to figure out what is best for them. And, of course, most kids are from the deep end of the gene pool.
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Old 02-23-2019, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,086 posts, read 3,423,117 times
Reputation: 9889
Quote:
Originally Posted by rugrats2001 View Post
Is this a joke? Have you somehow not heard of factory work? Work in the skilled trades? How about first responders, or any other non-teacher local, state, or federal government work? Nurses? Retail and wholesale workers? Restaurant and food service? To assume every worthy person brings home work is insulting.
Exactly. My husband installs residential tile. Doesn't bring work home. Why would he?

My father owns a sign business. Did not bring work home until recently, when he started working from home most days of the week.

My mother was a restaurant manager (and is now retired). Didn't bring home work.

I work from home, so my work is always here.
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Old 02-23-2019, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,086 posts, read 3,423,117 times
Reputation: 9889
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
No the theatre teacher wasn't the football coach, nor the assistant principal, nor the janitor. No the school district isn't incredibly wealthy. When you expect them to practice the play, or band, or chorus, or sports? Has to be at night because during the day they are in class.

As I pointed out earlier, not every kid did this, so it wasn't the norm across the school. If you looked across the school, the distribution of performance would be more bimodal than normal. Top students did have heavy schedules. May not have been identical, but heavy. The lower students didn't participate in near as much. In fact if you've followed my posts on other topics, you'll recall that my biggest issue with the school was how much focus they put on the top students who were college bound vs what they provided to those who weren't. While not as much of a pressure cooker as some of the really top schools around the country, it was certainly enough of one for the college bound students.

As I've said before, just because something is outside your experience doesn't mean it didn't happen. If you want to discuss points and issues, I'm happy to do so.
It's interesting that your high school theater practices were from 7:30 to 10. So the kids who weren't in sports would go home and then have to be back at the school at 7:30? I've dealt with a lot of high schools and I've never heard of that. For the night of dress rehearsal, yes, of course. But for every other practice, it's always been from 2:30 to 5 or something like that. Swim and band practice was sometimes before school and everything else was immediately after school.

Community theater is a different issue... my daughter was in one that rehearsed from 6:30 to 8:30 or 9:00 recently. I don't think many parents would go for that at the high school, to be honest. This particular show had a lot of homeschoolers.
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Old 02-23-2019, 08:54 AM
 
964 posts, read 193,453 times
Reputation: 1646
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiociolliscalves View Post
It should be no surprise the general characteristics of the parents of kids who excel in school. They make their kids take responsibility for themselves, they unconditionally support their teachers and they never make excuses for their kids.
Yes, indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiociolliscalves View Post
1. You will often have to do things that you don't like nor enjoy, but you have to do them. That's life. Get used to it. It's not as big a deal as you might imagine.
2. You will often not understand why your boss/teacher/coach does things the way they do. You're young and you don't know much. That's okay, with age, most of you will grow wiser, to the point that you will appreciate how much you didn't know and how much those folks you questioned did in fact know.
Yes, indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiociolliscalves View Post
Accepting that is a big part of growing up and misguided parents deprive their kids of this lesson when they do things like undercutting teachers and giving their kids the gross misconception that teachers are giving them work for the sake of giving them work and generally wasting their time.

Yes, indeed.
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Old 02-23-2019, 08:59 AM
 
964 posts, read 193,453 times
Reputation: 1646
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXRunner View Post
I have gotten snarky comments sometimes because I'm the only math teacher who doesn't give out homework daily.
Perhaps I missed it - what grade level of math do you teach?

Even among the most gifted of math students, it seems to me students need homework until pattern recognition sets in. The typical math textbook seems to be:

a) introduce a concept
b) two or three problems involving the concept worked out to a solution
c) homework problems so students can practice the concept
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Old 02-23-2019, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,125 posts, read 101,074,179 times
Reputation: 32583
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
No the theatre teacher wasn't the football coach, nor the assistant principal, nor the janitor. No the school district isn't incredibly wealthy. When you expect them to practice the play, or band, or chorus, or sports? Has to be at night because during the day they are in class.

As I pointed out earlier, not every kid did this, so it wasn't the norm across the school. If you looked across the school, the distribution of performance would be more bimodal than normal. Top students did have heavy schedules. May not have been identical, but heavy. The lower students didn't participate in near as much. In fact if you've followed my posts on other topics, you'll recall that my biggest issue with the school was how much focus they put on the top students who were college bound vs what they provided to those who weren't. While not as much of a pressure cooker as some of the really top schools around the country, it was certainly enough of one for the college bound students.

As I've said before, just because something is outside your experience doesn't mean it didn't happen. If you want to discuss points and issues, I'm happy to do so.
Yes, we get it. Your kids were the top students.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rugrats2001 View Post
Is this a joke? Have you somehow not heard of factory work? Work in the skilled trades? How about first responders, or any other non-teacher local, state, or federal government work? Nurses? Retail and wholesale workers? Restaurant and food service? To assume every worthy person brings home work is insulting.
My husband worked in telecom as a PhD scientist and rarely brought work home. It was more common for him to occasionally stay late, or go in on a Saturday or Sunday.

Depending on the nursing job, you might take some work home, but more to do the work at home instead of in the office. This happened to me when I worked as an admin and had stuff to write up. I'd sometimes do it at home when my kids were young and off school. More often, a nurse will work OT at the hospital.
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Old 02-23-2019, 12:19 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
21,790 posts, read 38,853,599 times
Reputation: 22442
or... (another option...)
engage students in 'real life' activities... While living overseas ours did the daily fresh market shopping (Including currency exchange and foreign language (and foods)). We always had the kids on checking accounts to pay the monthly bills. (they need to know what it costs to keep the doors open). Especially the car doors!. They were 100% on their own financially before age 16. They were not 'set free' (from home) until age 17-18. They were well prepared (their own cars / insurance / homes / accounts).

Farm kids need to know how to do ratios for feed, supplements, pesticides. (They learn that in 4-H (age 10) and practice it 2x everyday).

My kids (and employees) seem to catch onto 'math' concepts everyday while using CAD / Machining / building homes / setting concrete forms / laser leveling / surveying parcels. They mess up $1000 of raw materials which delays a customer project 2 weeks and they get 'real-life-experiential learning's. (They must call and explain to customer and material supplier.)

Of course in the mornings, I had my kids look through their stock holdings and discern company financial statements to understand valuations and place their daily trades / watch lists. (IRA's since age 12). By age 16, they were much more diligent traders than I. (and continue to be 20 yrs later). Believe me... my kids were MOTIVATED to learn and succeed at investing! Beats running a shovel or hammer the rest of your life, like their parents.

It is about your priorities and willingness to convey useful information to the next generation appropriate to a student's learning styles, and applicable interests.

Millions of parents / grandparents / family friends / (teachers) are doing so this very minute (and every minute of the day). Assigned Homework... is often not very 'relevant'. (tho if purposeful homework can keep your kids away from the "passive tube" (if you happen to have one).

I learned an interesting tact while living in Asia. Our 'national' friends did not ask their kids to sit down and practice music or do homework... They (parents) sat down and started playing piano or writing, and their kids would be curious and want to join them and sit down beside them. Together they worked through it and both learned! When parents wanted their kids to go to college... the parent's begin a college / adult learning program themselves. Was very effective and saved a lot of nagging and frustration.

Commitment? What is yours? (To the betterment of your kids and other kids?) Do you teach / employ / befriend your neighbor kids? If not, Why not?? Can you imagine how that would return dividends? (to your life, their life, their parent's life, and community / nation) You realize this was the norm 100+ yrs ago. And likely assisted to bring USA Allies to victory in WW 1 & 2. (i.e. TOGETHER, not solo / stuck with face in handphone)

Last edited by StealthRabbit; 02-23-2019 at 12:28 PM..
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Old 02-23-2019, 01:50 PM
 
Location: midwest
1,375 posts, read 994,723 times
Reputation: 833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_Thinker View Post
One of the things I hated most about growing up was homework. I did everything I could to avoid doing it, even at the expense of lower grades and getting "yelled at." My reasoning was that school was school, and home was for rest and relaxation. I never saw my parents do any "homework" related to their jobs - work was work, and home was for doing whatever you wanted. Made perfect sense to me.

The floor is open for discussion...
Did you get straight A's in math in high school? Have you had a job that required math since then?

I liked math and took 4 years of it in high school and mostly got straight A's except my junior year. That year the teacher played psychological games with the class. He assigned homework at least 80% of the time but he would only collect it 33% of those times. So it seemed a waste of time to do the homework if he didn't collect it but if you took the chance that he would not collect it and he did then you lost points toward an A. So I treated it as a game. I always got A's on the tests but some grading periods I ended up with a B because I missed too many homework assignments.

BUT, even when I did not do the whole assignment I always did the three hardest problems. Listening to the teacher in class and memorizing that and thinking that you understand it is not the same as solving a complicated problem. I don't know how to explain that moment when something clicks in my mind and the crossover between memorization and "understanding" occurs but I recognize it when it happens, and it is unlikely to happen in math and sciences without homework.

With subjects like history and English literature this may not apply since they really seemed to be just memorizing the information and ideas the teacher regarded as important even if I did not agree. Arguing with the teacher did not have an upside however.
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Old 02-23-2019, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Chicago
5,537 posts, read 8,495,446 times
Reputation: 6509
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalExpectations View Post
Very true.

For those who do not believe in homework, read this essay: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior http://www.psychology.sunysb.edu/hwa...%20mothers.pdf

Which begins:




Our daughter grew up in Silicon Valley in a competitive public school district. The parents (both moms and dads) of her friends and peers were typically educated in China, and came to the USA to earn their PhDs in electrical engineering, chemical engineering, materials science, mechanical engineering, solid state physics, and other technical disciplines. It was the deep end of the gene pool.

It was very common for stay-at-home moms (who were PhD scientists) to come to school just before recess, and instead of letting their children go out and play on the blacktop & jungle gym, take their children into the library for drill and kill. After school, of course, all took their kids to Kumon centers https://www.kumon.com/resources/what...-kumon-method/.

After 1st grade, for a variety of reasons, we transferred her to private school, which was also heavily academic. I recall her high school graduating class had 12% matriculate as freshman at MIT, with well over 3/4 of the graduates heading to the Ivy League, Stanford, Berkeley, Chicago, CalTech, Johns Hopkins and Northwestern; most of the rest went to liberal arts colleges such as Claremont McKenna, Amherst, and the like. Indeed, many of the kids had the so-called HYPS syndrome: if they did not gain acceptance to Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Stanford, it was somehow an insult against their ancestors.

It was the deep end of the gene pool. And there was always hours and hours of homework - even in 2nd grade. In addition to reinforcing and applying concepts taught during the day, homework reinforces things that are general skills - delayed gratification (playtime comes only when schoolwork is done), and reinforced school-taught organizational skills, study skills, focus, etc.

The above isn't for every kid, of course. Unfortunately, children do not come with instruction manuals, so parents have to figure out what is best for them. And, of course, most kids are from the deep end of the gene pool.

Having toured MIT, Harvard, CalTech, Chicago, Northwestern, Princeton, Johns Hopkins, and other top engineering programs in the last 6 months, the admissions tours are filled with kids as you describe. However, that does not mean these kids always stand out as the most desirable applicants. At the MIT tour last week, many of the other parents/students touring looked/acted similarly. For example, they wore a State Robotics team, Chess club, or Math league T-shirt and asked alot of questions about test scores, rather than about the programs. I’m sure many of these students graduated through all the Kumon math and Suzuki music books.

However, I got the clear message from these schools that they are not looking for kids that follow a common formula. They are looking for students with creativity, uniqueness, cross-academic discipline, and leadership skills/experiences, as well as a strong foundation in the liberal arts. They require good writing samples and strong recommendations from liberal arts teachers. This is where many of the “formula-following” STEM competitive parents/students can fall short in the admissions process.

When your child can follow their own unique path that they truly love, and can demonstrate their individualism, passion, expertise, and leadership during the admissions process, I think that will get them far in getting into the right school for them.

p.s. Having recently looked at MIT admission stats, I find the stat that 12% of your high school matriculated to MIT hard to believe... but I guess I don’t know the specifics of your high school. Also, Asian males from private high schools are at a statistical disadvantage for some of the schools you mentioned. Harvard (and I think also Stanford?) even got sued for this.

Last edited by GoCUBS1; 02-23-2019 at 03:00 PM..
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Old 02-23-2019, 02:42 PM
 
15,704 posts, read 17,443,288 times
Reputation: 15445
Quote:
Originally Posted by rugrats2001 View Post
Is this a joke? Have you somehow not heard of factory work? Work in the skilled trades? How about first responders, or any other non-teacher local, state, or federal government work? Nurses? Retail and wholesale workers? Restaurant and food service? To assume every worthy person brings home work is insulting.
I suppose it is possible that his parents worked in the trades, but it has been my experience that the children of these parents (I taught in the inner city were many parents did work in factories) did not have the kind of schedule he says his kids had.

Most of the children of these parents worked after school themselves and did not have time for a before school club, a sport *and* theater practice.

I didn't say the parents in these types of job were not *worthy.* I said that most people I know bring work home.
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