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Old 02-20-2019, 08:20 AM
 
4,489 posts, read 1,961,074 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Your claims are wildly overstated. Traditional school has a place for most high achievers. My son is a neurosurgery resident there is no way to self teach/boot camp etc. oneself to sort of thing.

I'm an on and off academic myself. Lots of people both inside and outside academia don't function well.

I'd advise decaf for a day or two.
A lot of people like to use the experience of 0.00001% of people who become extremely high achievers without following a standard path, and try to draw conclusions about the remaining mass of people.


There are geniuses in every field who do not require formal education. Their experience is not a guide to what the ordinary schlub should do, and make no mistake, your child is almost certain to be an ordinary schlub.


Ordinary schlubs need to PRACTICE things. They need to have lessons reinforced over and over and over again. They need to spend quiet time alone thinking over the lessons of the day so they can understand them better. They also need to be pushed by those who are older and know better, because ordinary kids (again, your child is almost certainly an ordinary kid) will, if let alone, sit on their duffs all day playing video games, or hanging around outside painting nasty words on the neighbors' fences and pulling the wings off insects to see what happens.
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:25 AM
 
4,489 posts, read 1,961,074 times
Reputation: 12714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_Thinker View Post
One of the things I hated most about growing up was homework. I did everything I could to avoid doing it, even at the expense of lower grades and getting "yelled at." My reasoning was that school was school, and home was for rest and relaxation. I never saw my parents do any "homework" related to their jobs - work was work, and home was for doing whatever you wanted. Made perfect sense to me.

And to think I had it hard doing 30-45 minutes a night during my high school years - these days, kids are expected to work hours each night after school - and this is after bloated 7-hour plus school days. Good grief, Charlie Brown. And they're assigning homework in kindergarten. If this is not child cruelty, I don't know what is.

School was bad enough - being bored to tears learning stuff that had no bearing on real life, having to deal with yelly teachers and dress codes that made zero sense (no shorts in non-AC buildings - at least that's not an issue in this era...lol.) But having do schoolwork on *my own time* was insult to injury. I could handle school on my own terms - but I truly resented having do perform extra work on top of the school day, when there were so many other things I could be doing, like playing outside or spending time with my family. If they had Internet back then, goodness knows how distraught I'd been having to divert my free time toward homework.
Well, Boo. Hoo.


Would you like a tissue?


I will herewith quote Flannery O'Connor:


"And if the student finds that this is not to his taste? Well, that is regrettable. Most regrettable. The student's taste should not be consulted. It is being formed."
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:55 AM
Status: "Fight On" (set 28 days ago)
 
Location: Living on the Coast in Oxnard CA
15,485 posts, read 26,250,850 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_Thinker View Post
If that's the case, why is it that the typical homeschooler is able to learn grade-appropriate material in about 4 hours a day, including practice time, whereas it takes 7-plus hours of in-school time, plus 2-3 hours of extra work to learn the same material?

Oh yeah, it took me just a few minutes of practice to learn how to tie my shoes. I can remember that quite vividly. I couldn't wait to get home to show my mother my new skill...lol.

When it came to math, it was a case of once I "got it," I was ready to move on. Having to do long division problems over and over, when I already knew how to do it, was mindless drudgery. There was no point in it. My favorite math teacher was the one who lectured for 30 minutes, and then let the students practice for the remaining 20, providing individual assistance as needed. My grade was an A in that class, coming up from C's in prior math classes. Yes, she was that good.
Last I checked the home schooled student to "teacher" ratio was not 38 kids to one teacher. Last I checked the home schooled kids probably had a place to study at "school" where plenty of students don't have a table to work off of.

Lets say though that you are in a district where they are lucky enough to have only 20 kids in the classroom. Kids go to school here from 8:00am till 2:50pm in Middle school. Between Lunch and recess you lose maybe an hour of time. Lets say we are down to 6 hours of actual in the class time and we have only 20 kids in the class. That is 18 minutes of one on one time with the teacher. The home schooled kid gets the full 4 hours of time you are talking about.
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:29 AM
 
4,489 posts, read 1,961,074 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE View Post
Last I checked the home schooled student to "teacher" ratio was not 38 kids to one teacher. Last I checked the home schooled kids probably had a place to study at "school" where plenty of students don't have a table to work off of.

Lets say though that you are in a district where they are lucky enough to have only 20 kids in the classroom. Kids go to school here from 8:00am till 2:50pm in Middle school. Between Lunch and recess you lose maybe an hour of time. Lets say we are down to 6 hours of actual in the class time and we have only 20 kids in the class. That is 18 minutes of one on one time with the teacher. The home schooled kid gets the full 4 hours of time you are talking about.
This particular person has decided that because he hated doing homework (big surprise there, most do, most kids hate doing what's good for them) and because there is a tiny fraction of people who are able to grasp complicated things on first hearing, and because there is a tiny fraction of people who are able to become super-achievers without going through the usual education process the rest of us schlemihls have to, that


Therefore


Be it resolved that homework is useless and should be abolished.


Facts like the amount of actual instructional time and actual practice time available in actual schools that exist in the real world, or the actual behavior and learning patterns of actual children, are not relevant to this particular belief system.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,125 posts, read 101,074,179 times
Reputation: 32578
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Why is that end time sound so strange? Start at 7 or 730. 80 minute game + half time. That puts the end of the game around 840-9, not counting any OT. Then 30 minutes for the cooldown and post game coach's lecture. Leave the field between 9 and 930. Get home, clean up, puts supper around 10. If the game is away add 1 or 2 hours drive time back from whatever town the game was in. There's nothing unusual there. Even when I was a kid that pretty expected on game night. Biggest difference back then is you only had football, baseball, and basketball and girls only had basketball. And football only played one night a week. Now you have sports that play 2-3 nights a week. And while the boys sports were fairly deconflicted, there were girls playing multiple sports that had to hustle between one and the other on game nights.

I'm also amazed that the daily schedule seems so surprising to folks. There've been books written about how overscheduled today's kids are. The competition for college admissions and funds starts early in today's world. Ours felt that while college material was far more challenging that high school, actual college life was more relaxed.
OK, this post may have a few typos due to me typing in my husband's hospital room with gloves on, so bear with me.

Many of us are surprised at that schedule because we too are raising/have raised kids through high school/college and know you are exaggerating.

First off, if that's your kids' daily or almost daily schedule, you need to step in and and insist they drop some activities.

Secondly, it is almost impossible to do all those activities at the same time. I would say it's totally impossible at any school I'm familiar with to do a sport and the school play at the same time as the practices are usually held at about the same time of day.

Football is a time consuming sport. Not that they aren't all time consuming, but the football season is longer and the games last longer than many other sports. A two team gymnastics meet lasts about 2 hours at the most. Of course, the gymnasts have to be at the gym about 2 hours before the start of the meet for warmups. The big invitationals with 16 teams varsity and JV are on Saturdays. Some intermediate size meets are on Friday nights.

Sorry, gotta go now.
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
9,531 posts, read 5,226,462 times
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I received today the details of a tour I have to conduct in 3 weeks. In 3 weeks, for a two hour assignment, I have to be an expert and represent my section excellently. As with anything in this modern work world, it is not a task that I can focus all my working days on; in fact, probably only minute parts here and there.


NOT A PROBLEM for that is what I have been taught is one of my professional qualifications. "If you are lacking on anything, we will just hand you the text book and in a week, you will be up on the subject.".


That is what I was told in my second undergrad, the first being an engineering degree from TAMU, when I didn't have the necessary prerequisite course, what the Navy taught me when I was assigned off the ship to a shore station, and probably at other times.



Of course, in order to do that, I have to be able to open the books to read and absorb, willing to do that in off times. It probably is a definite factor in my ability to do this that I have been told how important such a skill is......................and to take pride in it.


I remember my errors in childhood, of how in 4th and 5th grade, we were given research questions which had other children at the base library, but not me.....and then, I had to do it all in one night. Live and learn, if painfully so. Now, admittedly, at those times, I lived on Clark AFB and the school day was only 5 hours long. Half the children went from 07-12 and half from 12-1700. It was, of course, not like that at other schools, in other grades.



When does a person learn to be able to do this? When is the mind developed with this skill? If one waits till college to start, it will almost in all cases be "fatal". Is the 4 years of high school enough time to develop that skill or should it be sooner than that?


Then there is a point of what other skills might be developed during such lessons. This morning, I was recalling Robert Heinlein's "Friday" and
Spoiler



I recalled the opening of the book, how an old friend gave her a ride on a wagon, there was an ambush and the enemy died in the fire after bullets drove them back, of her work with her employer and then the employer was gone, trying to find new work and not much for a strategic courier, the honeymoon with an old friend and the breakup, the special cargo in her body for a mission only to find out how they, too, betrayed her, the escape to a new planet, and then years later, the conversation with her "daughter"



I read that book probably back in the early 90s and I still remember. That is one of my talents of how I can read, speed or pleasure, and maybe not remember tomorrow but in 6 months, then and forever. Was this ability developed during those homework days?


Who knows......but given that possibility, maybe for the ease of today by not having homework, we might deny a powerful feature.
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,125 posts, read 101,074,179 times
Reputation: 32578
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE View Post
Last I checked the home schooled student to "teacher" ratio was not 38 kids to one teacher. Last I checked the home schooled kids probably had a place to study at "school" where plenty of students don't have a table to work off of.

Lets say though that you are in a district where they are lucky enough to have only 20 kids in the classroom. Kids go to school here from 8:00am till 2:50pm in Middle school. Between Lunch and recess you lose maybe an hour of time. Lets say we are down to 6 hours of actual in the class time and we have only 20 kids in the class. That is 18 minutes of one on one time with the teacher. The home schooled kid gets the full 4 hours of time you are talking about.
You beat me to it!
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:53 PM
 
5,066 posts, read 4,583,445 times
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I always thought it was about more practice.
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:56 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
21,788 posts, read 38,853,599 times
Reputation: 22437
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE View Post
Last I checked the home schooled student to "teacher" ratio was not 38 kids to one teacher. Last I checked the home schooled kids probably had a place to study at "school" where plenty of students don't have a table to work off of.

Lets say though that you are in a district where they are lucky enough to have only 20 kids in the classroom. Kids go to school here from 8:00am till 2:50pm in Middle school. Between Lunch and recess you lose maybe an hour of time. Lets say we are down to 6 hours of actual in the class time and we have only 20 kids in the class. That is 18 minutes of one on one time with the teacher. The home schooled kid gets the full 4 hours of time you are talking about.
I work in countries where the teachers have 50 students 7AM until noon, then 50 different students 1pm - 6pm. The academic achievement and quality of education is vastly superior to USA system and outcome.

So... do what is best for YOUR kids (and community), the world offers plenty of options.

No one system will be the BEST solution for all.

Some systems are very obvious poor choices, & poor use of time, and money. (and poor use of the talent of teachers and students, ...and bus drivers and janitors and very poor use of extensive capital property and equipment investments).

Imagine if ALL those assets (intellectual and material) were in support of academic and economic excellence of our entire society. This is purposely done in the many countries who actually incorporate strategic planning. (rather than bashing through a divisive electorate) +/- to all political and edu systems. I will assert that the USA systems may have expired their most effective course.

Last edited by StealthRabbit; 02-20-2019 at 03:01 PM..
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:30 PM
 
Location: The point of no return, er, NorCal
7,131 posts, read 4,481,770 times
Reputation: 9145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_Thinker View Post
If that's the case, why is it that the typical homeschooler is able to learn grade-appropriate material in about 4 hours a day, including practice time, whereas it takes 7-plus hours of in-school time, plus 2-3 hours of extra work to learn the same material?

Oh yeah, it took me just a few minutes of practice to learn how to tie my shoes. I can remember that quite vividly. I couldn't wait to get home to show my mother my new skill...lol.

When it came to math, it was a case of once I "got it," I was ready to move on. Having to do long division problems over and over, when I already knew how to do it, was mindless drudgery. There was no point in it. My favorite math teacher was the one who lectured for 30 minutes, and then let the students practice for the remaining 20, providing individual assistance as needed. My grade was an A in that class, coming up from C's in prior math classes. Yes, she was that good.
I'm not sure if homeschooling is a fair comparison because it simply isn't a viable option for most learners and depending on the approach, it is personalized to fit the needs of each student. More time and attention is spent on a given topic.

My older two are currently homeschooled through a charter (we chose the curriculum) as of last Sept. They ended up choosing a block schedule, but they generally spend two hours on each subject (three a day), and they start at 8:30 am. They do their work in the time they devote to that particular subject. Sometimes my oldest will work on papers on the weekend, but overall, there's a lot of flexibility. They're almost finished with the year's units and will progress from there.

But that isn't really an option for most kids, you know? I will say, my oldest did not find most of her math homework beneficial, and she excels at math. When concepts were poorly explained, she found visiting Khan Academy or other sites or asking my H's help was far better at grasping concepts than drilling problems that were not always explained thoroughly. This was a big problem in 6th grade. It was her math teacher's last year of teaching and she had an "f-it!" attitude when it came to teaching. She just went through the motions.

When my daughter fully understood the lessons, easy-peasy and as she stated, drilling those problems helps to retain information, but there comes a point that it becomes busywork and she loses motivation. My other daughter just "get's" it without much practice. Once she grasps the lessons and works out the problems, she gets it and retains it no problem. My ex-husband was the same way.

The approach to teaching math and the teacher can make all the difference.
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