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Old Today, 10:15 AM
 
3,538 posts, read 1,960,045 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
I graduated from college in 1987 and went to a regular university. College Algebra was offered as a math class and satisfied general education requirements for those who were not required to take higher level math as part of their degree requirement. I don't think this is an example of college being dumbed down.

Nice try.

The so-called College Algebra class I had in freshman year was more like a Trigonometry or Pre-Calculus type class.

 
Old Today, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,039 posts, read 100,903,502 times
Reputation: 32455
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
It seems two different things are getting conflated here. One is background, the other is ability. You are talking about background. I agree. In fact I will admit to some surprise that you agree with me about it being a failure of the school system that drives the need. I'm not blaming the student but the school. My point is two fold. For the individual college isn't the place to fix a lack of background; it's too expensive to fix it there, a different venue such as CC would be a more cost effective solution. The bigger part of this is let's fix the broken school system so that college doesn't have to fix it.

The other issue that has gotten conflated is ability. That's a different problem from background because more remedial courses cannot make up for ability. Honestly, does every kid in high school have the ability to do college level work? Trying to drag those kids through college by every means possible will only frustrate them. Do folks really believe EVERY kid can succeed at college and come out ready to start their new job?




Not what I said. See above.
What makes you think the student in the story the OP posted is lacking in ability? From what I have observed, both in my own high school days and my kids', I think the vast majority can succeed in college if they have the motivation. I find the attitude that only a chosen few can make it in college, your kids, mine, a few other peoples' kids, and everyone else should go to trade school elitist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ312 View Post
This isn't a Trump issue. This isn't really even a conservative or a liberal ideology issue. Politicians of both parties and business leaders hold culpability in this.

Factory work is what helped make the United States a great nation. The United States' birth as a nation occurred right around the same time as the Industrial Revolution. The United States and industrial output will be tied together in history.

I think the poster right above me illustrated the crisis effectively. It is better for our high school graduates to have more options in blue collar work or the trades rather than low wage service sector jobs in retail.

While the economy has shifted since the 1970s, the educational system hasn't shifted. A lot of the K-12 education system was designed during the United States Industrial era, and was suited to develop people for factory, industrial work, and blue collar trades.

The college path is not designed for everyone. We have had too many people going down the college path. Too many people are both attending college and graduating from college. The economy in recent years had been unable to absorb all of the college graduates, so that's why the BA in Sociology or Women's Studies Starbucks barista became a cliche in the 2000s/early 2010s.
Factory work is NOT coming back, no matter how much some politicians want to tell people that. I am angry at those who tell my friends and family back in Pittsburgh that they're going to bring the steel mills back, when any doofus could tell them otherwise. They believe it, because they want to believe it. That whole generation has to die off before some people back there will finally believe it.

What data do you have to back up any of those bolded statements? As for the green, I am totally appalled. Why shouldn't people graduate from college? That Starbuck's barista cliche is an urban legend. I know one college graduate who works as a barista at SB. She's also the music director at my church, getting paid a modest wage at both and hoping to work the music director thing into a career. My kids, their friends, my nieces and nephews, my friends' kids who are college graduates are all working in professional jobs. Best not to get your information from the National Enquirer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
I graduated from college in 1987 and went to a regular university. College Algebra was offered as a math class and satisfied general education requirements for those who were not required to take higher level math as part of their degree requirement. I don't think this is an example of college being dumbed down.


Nice try.
I graduated in 1970, ditto.
 
Old Today, 12:27 PM
 
3,538 posts, read 1,960,045 times
Reputation: 4048
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
And I find the belief that only those who go to college have value while looking down on those who work in the trades to be elitist.
I've always believed that the trades are a path that should be encouraged. Trade work is meaningful and often solid paying.

That also was a theme in the movie Office Space.
 
Old Today, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,039 posts, read 100,903,502 times
Reputation: 32455
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Where did I say the father in the article lacked ability? No where. You are still mixing two different topics to fit your narrative.

And I find the belief that only those who go to college have value while looking down on those who work in the trades to be elitist.
OK, so you used this article to move the goalposts to talk about your favorite topic, that not everyone should go to college. We (meaning you and I) have discussed this many times over.

I have NEVER said nor implied that I look down on those who work in the trades and I have answered this accusation from you many times over as well. I don't know how you can say "Not everyone should go to college; college isn't for everyone; it's only for those with the ability" as you said last evening and then say that you're NOT saying trade school is a step below college.

I do not look upon the trades as rhapsodically as you do. For one thing, as I have explained over and over in many threads, the opportunities for women in the trades isn't nearly as good as it is for men, something that can be documented. Secondly, most people in the trades have little opportunity for advancement beyond maybe being "head plumber" or whatever, including men. Yes, many trades offer the opportunity to earn a decent living.
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