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Old 10-18-2022, 12:32 PM
 
19,489 posts, read 17,709,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
And even those mediocre people find something better.

Pay them more and maybe the stronger grads will choose that route. Pay the same as anyone can make bartending and get what you pay for.
I'd tend to agree. And I think your ideas about merit pay are a good starting point.
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Old 10-18-2022, 12:40 PM
 
19,489 posts, read 17,709,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbiz1 View Post
Much has been discussed here over the past few years, all of it being valid and informative.
I have a new question to pose, seeing as it is topic related.
This morning I had a great conversation regarding testing with a recent nursing school grad.
She's terrified of the upcoming state exam, and I don't blame her; as I failed it in insurance related licensing; twice.
People she knows have already failed first attempts.
The issue we discussed is not being able to learn from our mistakes, and should this not be more incorporated into the learning process?. She felt the same as I did some 30 years ago, that in spite of graduating; she would of retained more had testing not been so punitive based.
I have some fairly strong opinions related to testing in general and testing across medial fields.


If your friend really believes "stress" in anticipation of a state nursing test kept her from learning more and indeed she fails the test............she simply should not be a nurse. People who cannot manage stress better than that should have no influence over medical actions.
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Old 10-18-2022, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,154 posts, read 23,799,416 times
Reputation: 32539
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I have some fairly strong opinions related to testing in general and testing across medial fields.


If your friend really believes "stress" in anticipation of a state nursing test kept her from learning more and indeed she fails the test............she simply should not be a nurse. People who cannot manage stress better than that should have no influence over medical actions.
Then I think we'll have a lot more understaffed hospitals than we have now.
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Old 10-18-2022, 01:09 PM
 
19,489 posts, read 17,709,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Then I think we'll have a lot more understaffed hospitals than we have now.
Do you want someone who can't pass your state's nursing exam administering your next dose of fentanyl?
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Old 10-18-2022, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,154 posts, read 23,799,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Do you want someone who can't pass your state's nursing exam administering your next dose of fentanyl?
You know darned well that's not what I'm saying.
People grow into positions. A starting nurse is a starting nurse.
It must have been wonderful for you being so perfect from the day you entered whatever profession you're in.
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Old 10-18-2022, 01:27 PM
 
19,489 posts, read 17,709,775 times
Reputation: 17024
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
You know darned well that's not what I'm saying.
People grow into positions. A starting nurse is a starting nurse.
It must have been wonderful for you being so perfect from the day you entered whatever profession you're in.
State nursing tests prove up minimum acceptable competency. According to a list I just looked at the rough average national first time NCLEX pass rate is about 90%. And we are not talking about bar or CPA degree of difficulty exams here.
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Old 10-18-2022, 04:14 PM
 
899 posts, read 654,149 times
Reputation: 2410
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
This made me chuckle. One of the pieces of advice I've given people (mostly parents) -- since retiring -- who are trying to deal with a school system (as well as any other business or governmental agency (etc.), is put everything in writing. Don't need to make threats at all. Just put everything in writing. For example: "I wanted to summarize what went on at our meeting last Tuesday...". I am telling you folks, putting things in writing often gets balls rolling (so to speak). Having said that, there may be times when that could work against you (so you have to use good judgement), and you need to keep such 'records' concise and accurate (which some people can't do). But under the right circumstances, it works wonders.
I had a department leader, J, who had designs on becoming an administrator. He had done the education part and all he needed was to be tapped on the shoulder to move up. As such, he would try to make ours a model department so he could show what a great job he was doing. That meant getting us to do extra things that we weren't required to do, but making it sound like we had to.

A couple of times I challenged him in front of the others, "Who's requiring this? Who said we had to do this?" etc. till he admitted that he just thought it would be a "good idea." Other times I told him to put it in writing that we were required. Eventually he learned not to do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Every time I met with one particular Principal I always sent a post-meeting email summarizing what we'd discussed and what decisions we'd made on whatever issues were discussed.

This was for anything AP and the self-study year and run-up to the Middle States reaccreditation.
That's good practice in many cases. I've found that administration often avoids responding by email. I'll send a question, wait for a reply. Later I'll see the person in the hall and get a "I saw your email, yes, good idea, do that." It would have taken two seconds to send that email reply but they won't leave a trail. As you two point out, you can be the proactive party and then it's implied that if they don't contest your version of things, it's true. Do you request receipts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
The 60+ work hours per week thing is a canard. The BLS and other sources make it clear that teachers work all of fewer hours per day, week, month and year than nearly any other profession.

Lots of teachers own homes as well.

Further, everyone going into teaching knows the pay + benefits + work expectations and seniority over merit rubric in advance.
You'd have to spell it out for me before I could agree or disagree. Early in the career, before you have your acts together, it can be rough. I don't doubt I put in 60. And some are workaholics. Guys like J above, he never let up. I don't think he had a personal life, which isn't sustainable.

People who coach sports or clubs or other extracurriculars for instance, can probably do it. Our workweek was 40 hours. I was talking to a bowling coach who said after school, the bus leaves the school to take them to the alley, which is at least 20 minutes away. Then they're putting on shoes etc. rolling some games, riding back...and the thing is, she can't go home until the last parent picks up the last kid. Then, when the tournament is out of town...

I was single and my salary wouldn't have covered a house until the low interest rates hit c.2001. Some thought I was a chump for not getting an ARM but we know how that turned out. Other teachers may have it easier because they're married so there may have two incomes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Finally we hear various claims about where teachers fit on the academic side v. other professions.
<snip>

If teachers want to be revered and thought of as professionally on par with engineers, dentists and lawyers the cadre must come almost exclusively from the top 1/3 college graduates. We are no where close to that now.

<snip>
If teaching paid as well, would more students of engineering (for instance) go into teaching instead of private industry? Hard to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbiz1 View Post
Much has been discussed here over the past few years, all of it being valid and informative.
I have a new question to pose, seeing as it is topic related.
This morning I had a great conversation regarding testing with a recent nursing school grad.
She's terrified of the upcoming state exam, and I don't blame her; as I failed it in insurance related licensing; twice.
People she knows have already failed first attempts.
The issue we discussed is not being able to learn from our mistakes, and should this not be more incorporated into the learning process?. She felt the same as I did some 30 years ago, that in spite of graduating; she would of retained more had testing not been so punitive based.
In education we see lots of people who panic when presented with a test. I've met good teachers who struggle with licensing exams; I've known poor teachers who breeze through them. My impression was that what you really need is good reading ability. There's some word or phrase in there that makes the difference. It seems more like "gotcha" than trying to get at the root of what the person knows.
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Old 10-18-2022, 04:33 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
41,707 posts, read 17,276,036 times
Reputation: 34180
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILTXwhatnext View Post
In education we see lots of people who panic when presented with a test. I've met good teachers who struggle with licensing exams; I've known poor teachers who breeze through them. My impression was that what you really need is good reading ability. There's some word or phrase in there that makes the difference. It seems more like "gotcha" than trying to get at the root of what the person knows.
And I saw one student teacher take the Middle School Math certification test 6 times before she passed.
Not because she didn't like testing. She was not good in Math; it was the $5K yearly bonus for Math teachers that she was going for.

Different strokes for different folks.
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Old 10-18-2022, 04:42 PM
 
4,844 posts, read 2,952,227 times
Reputation: 6648
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Then I think we'll have a lot more understaffed hospitals than we have now.

And they make this more difficult by delaying(in typical government fashion)the exams, then charge $400 to college students in my state for preview testing/more study material while they wait 2-3 months.
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Old 10-18-2022, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,154 posts, read 23,799,416 times
Reputation: 32539
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Do you want someone who can't pass your state's nursing exam administering your next dose of fentanyl?
Let's put it this way, I was in the ER about a month ago, and it took 20 minutes to get a nurse to take me to the toilet. Considering that we principals were required to administer epinephrine with no medical degree, I'd rather have a nurse than no nurse.
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