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Old 04-21-2019, 08:41 AM
 
363 posts, read 184,416 times
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I don't think US students are dumber than their counterparts elsewhere. Public schools pretty much everywhere in the world suck. Obviously, there is some variation, but it is pretty much a bottom of the barrel product.
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Old 04-21-2019, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Northern Appalachia
5,038 posts, read 6,231,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzleman View Post
To the extent that our education is failing, it is largely because our culture is failing.
Could you explain to me the difference between a culture that is failing and one that is succeeding?

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Originally Posted by Sunbiz1 View Post
Well, it's certainly failing the taxpayers.
Back in the 90's, everyone wanted to work for the Chicago system; 3 of my friends did just that.
All 3 took early retirement before age 50, and moved to Florida.
My fitness center is chock full of retired teachers in their 50's, one just returned from Punta Cana.
They seem to have it better than most in my town, of which the majority are still working.
As some of you may know, Illinois is in huge trouble due to pensions.
Even with the fiscal mess, the minimum teacher salary will be raised in July.
Pennsylvania is in the same situation. The problem was the state thought the stock market was going to continue to fund the pension fund and stopped requiring districts to contribute. Now they are playing catch up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waffleiron1968 View Post
I don't think US students are dumber than their counterparts elsewhere. Public schools pretty much everywhere in the world suck. Obviously, there is some variation, but it is pretty much a bottom of the barrel product.
And you know this because you have studied public schools around the world?
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Old 04-21-2019, 10:21 AM
 
1,158 posts, read 570,358 times
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Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
Pennsylvania is in the same situation. The problem was the state thought the stock market was going to continue to fund the pension fund and stopped requiring districts to contribute. Now they are playing catch up.

We're in one of 2 dozen or so states in need of pension reform.
Illinois just turned to bonds, which was already tried before the recession.
There are other factors contributing to lack of educational funding in my state, mainly corrupt politicians; and an insane constitutional provision our supreme court refuses to revise.
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Old 04-22-2019, 12:29 PM
 
363 posts, read 184,416 times
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Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
Could you explain to me the difference between a culture that is failing and one that is succeeding?



Pennsylvania is in the same situation. The problem was the state thought the stock market was going to continue to fund the pension fund and stopped requiring districts to contribute. Now they are playing catch up.



And you know this because you have studied public schools around the world?
No, but I have been overseas and see the same debates play out. You see the product of other systems and the average is no better than the US system.
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Old 04-22-2019, 04:07 PM
 
8,987 posts, read 9,126,562 times
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
When I was in school, if a parent complained about a teacher, the response they would get is "He/she has tenure, there is nothing I can do about it".

Maybe some compromise is needed. Maybe allow each district to fire a certain number of teachers per year, perhaps even just one, so that the worst of the worst can be fired, but there won't be any systematic firing of teachers for being on the wrong side politically.

What I think it comes down to is, administrators are not held accountable for the performance of teachers, and if it takes work to fire a teacher, they are going to look for the easiest way out, and not do the extra work to fire a teacher if they won't be rewarded for doing so.
I am close enough to a number of situations that I can tell you things are different than they were thirty years ago. There is more pressure for accountability by teachers and government employees than you imagine.

I personally know of one government agency that made a decision to hold employees more accountable than they had been in the past. The agency took employees from the central personnel office and placed them within individual bureaus in the department. The head of each bureau was, in effect, given direct access to a personnel officer whenever he/she dealt with an employee that was felt to be deficient. It created a situation where there were far more "write ups", far more "verbal warnings", suspensions, and terminations for lack of competence.

Try to understand something though: Such a system can be abused. What if the employee is a good employee, but is targeted because the boss is threatened by her education, skill level, or ingenuity? What if the boss doesn't want this employee around because they do the job better than the boss does?

Civil service and merit protection exists for the reasons I've stated earlier. Can it be abused? Yes. Can a lax system that allow termination for any reason at all be abused? Damn right it can. There is a reason that public employment is different than private employment. Public employment involves the use and distribution of our tax dollars. There should be an unwillingness to let bad bosses corrupt such a system. There should also be a requirement that employees be brought up on actual charges and be given the opportunity to respond. There should also be an appeal mechanism when one boss is determined to end a career that may have been established for decades and may involve pension and health insurance rights.
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Old 04-22-2019, 07:19 PM
 
8,054 posts, read 8,863,072 times
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Originally Posted by waffleiron1968 View Post
No, but I have been overseas and see the same debates play out. You see the product of other systems and the average is no better than the US system.
That's a great speech but one that is utterly invalidated by available evidence.

PISA Worldwide Ranking - average score of math, science and reading - FactsMaps
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Old 04-24-2019, 01:26 AM
 
Location: Tyler, Texas
270 posts, read 30,220 times
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The problem with education is there is no punishment anymore. If a teacher is respected, the student needs a slap across the face. If that doesnít work, then remove them from the classroom. Send them home suspended, tell the parents they can deal with their mixed up kids. If that doesnít work then thereís alternative school. And of even that doesnít work thereís expulsion and jail. In Korea and those countries they donít put up with that crap. There needs to be strict consequences for misconduct.

In New York City, when they have bad teachers they canít get rid of, they send to a room to sit in all day doing nothing. If a kid doesnít want to learn, they need to be sent outside of the class into a room they can sit in for eight hours every day. They will have no phone, will have their lunches brought to them, and will not leave that room except for supervised bathroom breaks. They can bring a book, magazine, or newspaper if they like, but they will not understand any circumstances listen to music or cause a disruption. If they cause a disruption they will be suspended. If it continues past that, then they can be expelled or put in jail for disorderly conduct.
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Old 04-24-2019, 04:20 AM
 
Location: Australia
768 posts, read 275,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffleiron1968 View Post
I don't think US students are dumber than their counterparts elsewhere. Public schools pretty much everywhere in the world suck. Obviously, there is some variation, but it is pretty much a bottom of the barrel product.
So the top scoring high school in my state of NSW, year after year after year, is a public selective high school. Over all the public system results here are very good.
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:18 AM
 
8,054 posts, read 8,863,072 times
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Originally Posted by MarisaMay View Post
So the top scoring high school in my state of NSW, year after year after year, is a public selective high school. Over all the public system results here are very good.
Truly selective (merit based, test-in only via IQ or soft-proxies such as ISEE/CATS etc.) public schools here in The USA are fantastic as well. The problem is they are rare.
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Old 04-24-2019, 12:08 PM
 
15,880 posts, read 17,657,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
That's a great speech but one that is utterly invalidated by available evidence.

PISA Worldwide Ranking - average score of math, science and reading - FactsMaps
And note: Singapore is an international leader in test-taking. Yet even their own education minister admitted that while their students aced international tests, they struggle produce mathematicians, scientists, entrepreneurs and academics.

OTOH, in 2015, the data TIMSS (Trends in International Mathematics and Science Assessment) test in 2015 show Americans scored their highest marks in the 20-year history of U.S. tests.
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