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First, your post is opening with two different topics. Your friend's entrepreneurial successes are not usually something that comes from public schooling. My entrepreneurial class came from a private business college, but usually successful entrepreneurs are working with an inherent, not learned skill.
Individual grades are usually an indication of the effort a student's dedication to her coursework, not the school.
I'm not buying the video's message. The government isn't doing anything to suppress education. People are what happened. School districts started cutting education programs in the 70s, when tax payers started voting down school budgets, which more than likely came about as a result of losing the bulk of our high-wage jobs to businesses' off-shoring, than an attempt to suppress anyone.
Instead of valuing a broad education, fostering a desire to learn, we started thinking that education was just to get a job. We cut history, the arts, and then we stopped supporting things like home economics, we turned our backs on trade skills like carpentry and mechanics, and the list goes on. The only programs that seem to be bullet proof to cuts are sports -- the one area where there is little opportunity for the majority, and does the most damage physically.
The focus on jobs and income started in the 80s, in my experience. Off-shoring high wage jobs reduced working people's wages before things started going high tech. People stopped caring about enriching children's opportunities to learn, for the sake of just finding a job that would pay their way.
I am at the end of the boomers. We were educated to learn to learn, to think critically, to observe, challenge and question the status quo. My classmates and I were challenged to read, learn to communicate our thoughts, listen to opposing opinions, debate. We were tested for aptitudes, and our skills were promoted by structured extracurricular training. If we excelled in a particular class, we were rewarded with advanced training. I learned to manage my money in a high school business law class that covered all the fundamentals in the first few weeks. These things are not even in the offering now.
I graduated in the 70s, when budgets were starting to be cut. I spent my sophomore through senior years in highschool in college preparatory classes. Unfortunately, my family finances wouldn't allow me to start college until nearly ten years later when I enrolled in community college in the 80s.
I was astonished to find that the course work I did in high school was far advanced than the community college curriculums. Eventually I went to a private school to complete my bachelor of arts degree. Twenty years later, after getting laid off, I went back to community college for a refresher in Accounting and found to my disappointment that the text books were teaching a much lower level than I'd taken in private school, and the instructors couldn't answer questions beyond telling me to read the text books.
We've failed the school system's by focusing on jobs, but not to suppress people -- but to keep taxes down. Now we are "reaping" those rewards of our own actions. The video's assertion isn't supported by actual history.
I also teach. This common complaint is a cop-out and a way to evade the larger issues that contribute to the failure of public education.
Too many standardized tests? Sure. Is a high-stakes, standardized test necessary? Of course, and it should be the largest criterion for measuring how a school is doing. What would you replace it with? Graduation rates? Percentage of students going to "college?" Those are a joke. Anyone in the system understands the games that are played with those numbers.
One of the real problems in public education is the general unwillingness to consider the possibility that we - teachers, administrators - are not all that great. Your school is probably like mine. Administrators and teachers alike are liable to comment on "what a great staff we have here." Probably not. Half of us are below average. I live with that fear about everyday I walk through those doors. Our school scores certainly suggest that and those tests that everyone loves to denigrate are pretty accurate in measuring how well our students are learning, or not learning, the things they're supposed to know by this point.
None of you know how to fix education. That’s why education in this country is a disaster and has been for 40 years.
First, your post is opening with two different topics. Your friend's entrepreneurial successes are not usually something that comes from public schooling. My entrepreneurial class came from a private business college, but usually successful entrepreneurs are working with an inherent, not learned skill.
Individual grades are usually an indication of the effort a student's dedication to her coursework, not the school.
I'm not buying the video's message. The government isn't doing anything to suppress education. People are what happened. School districts started cutting education programs in the 70s, when tax payers started voting down school budgets, which more than likely came about as a result of losing the bulk of our high-wage jobs to businesses' off-shoring, than an attempt to suppress anyone.
Instead of valuing a broad education, fostering a desire to learn, we started thinking that education was just to get a job. We cut history, the arts, and then we stopped supporting things like home economics, we turned our backs on trade skills like carpentry and mechanics, and the list goes on. The only programs that seem to be bullet proof to cuts are sports -- the one area where there is little opportunity for the majority, and does the most damage physically.
The focus on jobs and income started in the 80s, in my experience. Off-shoring high wage jobs reduced working people's wages before things started going high tech. People stopped caring about enriching children's opportunities to learn, for the sake of just finding a job that would pay their way.
I am at the end of the boomers. We were educated to learn to learn, to think critically, to observe, challenge and question the status quo. My classmates and I were challenged to read, learn to communicate our thoughts, listen to opposing opinions, debate. We were tested for aptitudes, and our skills were promoted by structured extracurricular training. If we excelled in a particular class, we were rewarded with advanced training. I learned to manage my money in a high school business law class that covered all the fundamentals in the first few weeks. These things are not even in the offering now.
I graduated in the 70s, when budgets were starting to be cut. I spent my sophomore through senior years in highschool in college preparatory classes. Unfortunately, my family finances wouldn't allow me to start college until nearly ten years later when I enrolled in community college in the 80s.
I was astonished to find that the course work I did in high school was far advanced than the community college curriculums. Eventually I went to a private school to complete my bachelor of arts degree. Twenty years later, after getting laid off, I went back to community college for a refresher in Accounting and found to my disappointment that the text books were teaching a much lower level than I'd taken in private school, and the instructors couldn't answer questions beyond telling me to read the text books.
We've failed the school system's by focusing on jobs, but not to suppress people -- but to keep taxes down. Now we are "reaping" those rewards of our own actions. The video's assertion isn't supported by actual history.
I think you're conflating a couple of things. It wasn't the people that cut things from schools. It was the educators themselves telling us that they knew better, and we didn't need things like Vo-Tec, or high school business class. It wasn't budget cuts; good grief the schools kept getting more and doing less with it. When my kids were in elementary, I compared their school to mine at the same age. Roughly the same number of students. Roughly the same number of teachers. The big difference? The assorted admin/support/overhead/whatever went from just a fraction of the number of teachers when I was in school to almost double the number of teachers when my kids were in school. That's how tax money gets sucked dry, and teachers still don't get paid enough. Most of the money is going to the non-value added overhead.
To the topic of Community Colleges. It's not surprising you'd find the quality of education there below what you experienced in a older high school or private college. CC's, despite what is claimed, aren't academically equivalent to a full college. Because their core student "customer" base is made of those who don't typically go to a high caliber university. Their academics are targeted toward those who historically wouldn't have gone to college but would have gone into the older Vo-Techs that the CC's grew out of.
I think you're conflating a couple of things. It wasn't the people that cut things from schools. It was the educators themselves telling us that they knew better, and we didn't need things like Vo-Tec, or high school business class. It wasn't budget cuts; good grief the schools kept getting more and doing less with it. When my kids were in elementary, I compared their school to mine at the same age. Roughly the same number of students. Roughly the same number of teachers. The big difference? The assorted admin/support/overhead/whatever went from just a fraction of the number of teachers when I was in school to almost double the number of teachers when my kids were in school. That's how tax money gets sucked dry, and teachers still don't get paid enough. Most of the money is going to the non-value added overhead.
To the topic of Community Colleges. It's not surprising you'd find the quality of education there below what you experienced in a older high school or private college. CC's, despite what is claimed, aren't academically equivalent to a full college. Because their core student "customer" base is made of those who don't typically go to a high caliber university. Their academics are targeted toward those who historically wouldn't have gone to college but would have gone into the older Vo-Techs that the CC's grew out of.
I won't deny you have valid points. You're seeing it from a perspective different than my own. That doesn't make either of us wrong. There is something not being mentioned by either of us -- the students. In my younger years we were taught to respect teachers, our lessons, and our elders in general. We paid attention in class, did our homework, and wanted to do well to gain the respect from our communities. If we didn't we had to face our parents and our teachers.
By my highscool years that started to change. Over worked, under-earning parents wanted the teachers to become surrogate parents, while at the same time these same parents started speaking about the schools not doing "their jobs."
I still believe my premise, people in general and not "the government" brought the issue upon ourselves, and a large part came from the lack of prosperity we've experienced since high paying jobs were sent off-shore. The video is a spin to put the government to blame, rather than the business. Our government is the result of our votes, and our lack of voter participation. So, ultimately we are responsible and we can change it.
I think you're conflating a couple of things. It wasn't the people that cut things from schools. It was the educators themselves telling us that they knew better, and we didn't need things like Vo-Tec, or high school business class. It wasn't budget cuts; good grief the schools kept getting more and doing less with it. When my kids were in elementary, I compared their school to mine at the same age. Roughly the same number of students. Roughly the same number of teachers. The big difference? The assorted admin/support/overhead/whatever went from just a fraction of the number of teachers when I was in school to almost double the number of teachers when my kids were in school. That's how tax money gets sucked dry, and teachers still don't get paid enough. Most of the money is going to the non-value added overhead.
To the topic of Community Colleges. It's not surprising you'd find the quality of education there below what you experienced in a older high school or private college. CC's, despite what is claimed, aren't academically equivalent to a full college. Because their core student "customer" base is made of those who don't typically go to a high caliber university. Their academics are targeted toward those who historically wouldn't have gone to college but would have gone into the older Vo-Techs that the CC's grew out of.
You need to specify that "educators" means, in about 99.9% of the cases, academic theorists and education bureaucrats and not classroom teachers.
We had a school board President appointed (well, he was the brother in law of the County Executive who appointed him) for my (former) school system who had a Doctorate in Education Administration but had never, not once, spent a day in the classroom or Administration suite in a school, he was an academic and "lobbyist".
I hire from youth (Berry farm) to Phd research scientists. (previous international employer)
Fortunately, international Education is much more 'practical application', (K-20) than 'teach to test ' academics of the USA. We have no use for academians, they can get a job at a USA edu establishment and perpetuate the crime (of non-practical-education). Many of ouir grads following UK system (including Singapore and Hong Kong) or Euro system, have been indentured with our companhy for 2 yrs. Their assignments / and results have been using our company software and proceedures. When they walk in the door after graduation, they need no training. They are engaged and productive on day one.
We can only inview from top 10% U's and the top 10% of their students. Many are clamoring for positions, but few get offers. Very, very selective hiring. Occasionally you can get a farm kid / ex military grad from a USA edu establishment that has a practical and responsible head on their shoulders. Many top tier USA kids washout of employment, when they realize how far under their peers they are performing. And... they (USA grads) don't know where to start to get on par with workplace competition and competence. (They're hopelessly lost and non-competitive)
Only carpenters use tape measures? That just goes to show how out of touch USA academia is.
Seamstress' / alterations, fabricators, stone masons, plumbers, electricials, gardeners, farmers, warehouse / pallet loaders, hobbists fishermen + measuring and math used by cooks, shoppers, baristas. ... Nothing like having your HS grad employee trash a $200 piece of special order plywood, because they can't add fractions and layout the best pattern for efficiency. Delivery to a major customer is delayed, and late fees far exceed the value of your clueless (and careless) employee.
Even the 8 yr old neighbor I hired yesterday to sort wood knew how to use a tape measure (Homeschooled, since he is to young to drive, he arrived his own tractor (that he repairs). (I need to add to his earned income for his $6000 ROTH contribution).
For the berry farm, it is best to hire homeschoolers to boss the public schoolers, who know nothing about procative tasks, self incentive, completing tasks, taking additional responsibilities, being kind and pleasant to customers, and certainly do not know Tare Weight! / net and gross..., how to make monetary change... But.. at about age 12 it gets tough to hire homeschoolers, as many are running their own businesses (with employees of their own).
Its very simple to illustrate, just go hire a few kids and give them a broad (not specific) instruction of what needs to get accomplished. Since we are all very busy (no time for babysitting)... come back in a few hours and note the accomplishments .
We (USA) no longer teach to encourage students to be lifelong learners and contributors to society.
We teach to the Minimum Expectation (as previous mentioned on this tread.)
If you meet that... you are accomplished(?).
Rather than.... if you can convey these thoughts to teach others, and apply your knowledge to the betterment of your society you are 'accomplished'. ! (am a 4th generation educator, who had the privilege of attending a country school.) Mentoring / teaching others to excel was a natural and expected process. When work at home was required, school was secondary (often). But we all knew how to learn (it was our survival). so school was just fluff. (I time to rest from daily required duties).
I think you're conflating a couple of things. It wasn't the people that cut things from schools. It was the educators themselves telling us that they knew better, and we didn't need things like Vo-Tec, or high school business class. It wasn't budget cuts; good grief the schools kept getting more and doing less with it. When my kids were in elementary, I compared their school to mine at the same age. Roughly the same number of students. Roughly the same number of teachers. The big difference? The assorted admin/support/overhead/whatever went from just a fraction of the number of teachers when I was in school to almost double the number of teachers when my kids were in school. That's how tax money gets sucked dry, and teachers still don't get paid enough. Most of the money is going to the non-value added overhead.
To the topic of Community Colleges. It's not surprising you'd find the quality of education there below what you experienced in a older high school or private college. CC's, despite what is claimed, aren't academically equivalent to a full college. Because their core student "customer" base is made of those who don't typically go to a high caliber university. Their academics are targeted toward those who historically wouldn't have gone to college but would have gone into the older Vo-Techs that the CC's grew out of.
Yes, new layers of bureaucracy between the teacher and principal.
I taught remedial math. There were 4 "math specialists" between me and the Principal.
None of the 4 taught any classes. One was a Math curriculum specialist. Why is that position needed ?
The state puts out a curriculum and teachers are trained to read and create lesson plans from them.
There was a Math dept head, Math curriculum specialist, Math coach (for the teachers) and one other (forgot the title).
All these people and still I was left on my own to make up daily lessons.
And this was a middle school.
None of you know how to fix education. That’s why education in this country is a disaster and has been for 40 years.
chiociolliscalves is a poster I have had a few tussles with in the past, but that post of his was exactly right on target.
Where did the move toward standardized testing as a measure of how well a school is performing come from? I think it's a result of consumerism-thinking that transferred very neatly over into the demands for public schools to prove they were performing. Sure, as a principal I could stand up on the stage at Back To School Night and say how wonderful our school was. But with standardized testing, I could prove how well we were doing...or I'd have to admit we weren't doing very well. And if it was latter, then we needed to fix it. As chiociolliscalves seems to be pointing out -- is standardized testing the whole story? No. But it is a key measurement of student learning, and certainly more accurate than 'opinion'.
I'll give you an example of how testing worked for us. I do have to admit that our school was one of the top performing schools in the state of Virginia. But one year the assistant superintendent pointed out to me that in one category -- special education -- our middle school was one of the very few in the county where test scores fell when students transitioned into our middle school and then rose again when they transitioned to high school. Why were our sped students scores dropping in middle school? Why the middle school slump...when in almost all other middle school they rose. And we worked on it...and fixed it.
We were also very fortunate that due to our gifted program and general success we were able to attract many of the better teacher candidates. But not every teacher at our school, and not every administrator at our school was top notch. And we sometimes found ourselves working to fix that problem, also.
Now, your statement that "None of you know how to fix education"...your mistake is that you imply that it's A simple solution. It isn't. It's complex and there are few, if any, easy answers.
I think you're conflating a couple of things. It wasn't the people that cut things from schools. It was the educators themselves telling us that they knew better, and we didn't need things like Vo-Tec, or high school business class. It wasn't budget cuts; good grief the schools kept getting more and doing less with it. When my kids were in elementary, I compared their school to mine at the same age. Roughly the same number of students. Roughly the same number of teachers. The big difference? The assorted admin/support/overhead/whatever went from just a fraction of the number of teachers when I was in school to almost double the number of teachers when my kids were in school. That's how tax money gets sucked dry, and teachers still don't get paid enough. Most of the money is going to the non-value added overhead.
To the topic of Community Colleges. It's not surprising you'd find the quality of education there below what you experienced in a older high school or private college. CC's, despite what is claimed, aren't academically equivalent to a full college. Because their core student "customer" base is made of those who don't typically go to a high caliber university. Their academics are targeted toward those who historically wouldn't have gone to college but would have gone into the older Vo-Techs that the CC's grew out of.
Wrong again.
Times change. Needs change. And I'll give you a good example of that. Take my small home town. In the 1940s and 1950s, and even into the early 1960s, most kids who graduated from high school (or didn't) in my home town went on to work at the local factory or on farms. So, even when I was in the 9th grade (which would have been in 1963), we were REQUIRED to take a 1 semester class in AGRICULTURE and a 1 semester class in shop. By 1967, the agriculture requirement -- and course -- had been dropped. Why? Because very few kids were going on to work on farms.
As late as 2008 (the year I retired as principal), our middle school still offered shop classes (with 2 full-time shop teachers) and home ec (although it was called teen living). Both were electives. We could always fill the shop classes. But over about ten years enrollment in teen living plummeted. We went from 2 full-time home ec teachers to one half-time home ec teacher. The home ec teacher came to my office one day to complain that we were not FORCING students to take her ELECTIVE. Think about that for a minute. I pointed out to her that, for all intents and purposes, her curriculum hadn't changed from the 1960s when I was in school...nearly 50 years earlier. "Oh yes we have. We have microwave ovens now". Yeah, like we need a whole semester to learn how to push buttons on a microwave. So I invited her to our next PTA meeting to discuss her complaint with real live parents. She left crying. The parents made it very clear that they didn't want their children wasting time on home ec because THEY wanted their kids to prepare for college.
Shop has fared better. Advances in technology have modified shop, and fewer kids are eventually going into professions directly related to shop. My old school still has 2 full-time shop teachers.
"It wasn't budget cuts; good grief the schools kept getting more and doing less with it". I'm sorry you never heard of inflation.
"non-value added overhead". When I was in school as a student, they didn't really teach special ed kids to be anything but special ed adults. That's a whole new world. We no longer shuttle the sped kids off in small room at the end of a dead end hallway. We also didn't have gifted education. Or the level and types of discipline issues that you parents send schools today. We educate the kids who come to our school. The good kids. The bad kids. The lazy kids. The go-getters. And those ingredients are formulated by YOU parents.
You need to specify that "educators" means, in about 99.9% of the cases, academic theorists and education bureaucrats and not classroom teachers.
We had a school board President appointed (well, he was the brother in law of the County Executive who appointed him) for my (former) school system who had a Doctorate in Education Administration but had never, not once, spent a day in the classroom or Administration suite in a school, he was an academic and "lobbyist".
I know that feeling.
The grad professor I had for the educational law course had never worked in a school in any capacity.
The grad professor I had for 'economics of education' had never worked in a school in any capacity...and he spent the entire semester teaching us Reaganomics without ever mentioning schools.
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+ measuring and math used by cooks, shoppers, baristas. ... Nothing like having your HS grad employee trash a $200 piece of special order plywood, because they can't add fractions and layout the best pattern for efficiency. Delivery to a major customer is delayed, and late fees far exceed the value of your clueless (and careless) employee.
