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Old 04-27-2019, 08:43 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,465 posts, read 10,404,462 times
Reputation: 20311

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Quote:
Originally Posted by psikeyhackr View Post
With the Internet why do we need to care about any "Official Design"?

If anything part of that design is to produce people subservient to authority.

Now students and parents can decide what they want to learn outside the system and give the minimum of lip service to the system. How much of that design comes from 1892?

https://sudburybeach.wordpress.com/2...mittee-of-ten/

Of course that was before Einstein came up with Relativity and most high schools still teach sciences in the sequence, Biology, Chemistry, Physics. It was also before photosynthesis was figured out.

How about Newtonian Physics, Chemistry, Biology and then Einstienian/Quantum Physics?

But now grammar school kids can watch videos about all of that on Youtube. And get computer science.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNN_tTXABUA

I did not get an explanation that good in college or from IBM. I had to solder together my own computer in 1978 to understand what was really going on.
The internet is a learning tool. It is not education.

Official design -- yes, I understand, you want what you want, and to hell with a democratic school concept.

Now I understand...you view of the world is based on You Tube videos.
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Old 04-27-2019, 12:13 PM
 
Location: midwest
1,432 posts, read 1,030,527 times
Reputation: 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
The internet is a learning tool. It is not education.

Official design -- yes, I understand, you want what you want, and to hell with a democratic school concept.

Now I understand...you view of the world is based on You Tube videos.
Democratic school concept? What the hell is that? Some group of people voting on what an individual should learn. Voting on what elementary structure of knowledge everybody should learn?

Is education the selection of learning tools? The Internet can provide the access to all content. Is education the selection of content. Was the Committee of Ten democratic. Oh yes, let's make a blanket judgement on the basis of it being YouTube, like we can make a blanket judgement on live teachers.

If 1% of YouTube videos are better than 60% of teachers then the problem is selecting the videos.

It is curious that we don't have a National Recommended Reading List after all of these decades.


90% of everything is crud. - Sturgeon's Law
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Old 04-27-2019, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
4,393 posts, read 1,666,771 times
Reputation: 7997
Education is the dissemination of knowledge. Thanks to the miracle of intellectual property laws, knowledge is the property of for profit investors, from whom it must be bought. Even this forum blocks the dissemination of knowledge to its users if the source is owned by somebody for profit.

The reason public education did so well in places like USSR and China was the absence of copyright laws to hamstring formal and informal education. American public education just feeds a captive market to the textbook industry, while copyright law puts alternative versions out of reach.
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Old 04-28-2019, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,465 posts, read 10,404,462 times
Reputation: 20311
Quote:
Originally Posted by psikeyhackr View Post
Democratic school concept? What the hell is that? Some group of people voting on what an individual should learn. Voting on what elementary structure of knowledge everybody should learn?

Is education the selection of learning tools? The Internet can provide the access to all content. Is education the selection of content. Was the Committee of Ten democratic. Oh yes, let's make a blanket judgement on the basis of it being YouTube, like we can make a blanket judgement on live teachers.

If 1% of YouTube videos are better than 60% of teachers then the problem is selecting the videos.

It is curious that we don't have a National Recommended Reading List after all of these decades.


90% of everything is crud. - Sturgeon's Law
You know, you really don't know very much about the education system in this nation, do you?

State boards of education are typically appointed by ELECTED officials.
Locally, in most localities, there are regular local boards of education meetings open to the public. For the most part, those on local boards of education are ELECTED. Due to sunshine laws, most make decisions in open meetings. People just like you -- egads! -- can speak before the local board of education and have your case heard. In many localities, the general public even gets to vote on school budgets. That's democracy. The fact that you don't like what the masses have put in place, and that you think it should change at your whim -- that's anti-democratic.

As far as changing the curriculum. I saw it evolve almost constantly in 33 years in the profession. But I'll tell you about change -- rapid change is often haphazard. Well-thought-out change is usually more effective, even if we are frustrated by how slowly it occurs.

Okay, 90% of everything is crud. I guess that includes 90% of your posts.
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Old 04-28-2019, 11:00 AM
 
Location: midwest
1,432 posts, read 1,030,527 times
Reputation: 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
You know, you really don't know very much about the education system in this nation, do you?

State boards of education are typically appointed by ELECTED officials.

Okay, 90% of everything is crud. I guess that includes 90% of your posts.
I see you are a retired school principal. If you are retired now I presume you started in the system before cheap computers and the Internet existed. As far as I am concerned there is "education" and there is the "education business". There is some degree of overlap but they are not quite the same thing.

Education can be done without the system. This might present problems for people who want careers within the system and politicians who want children to think the right thoughts. I am not trying to change the education system from within. I am just telling people what options exist outside the system. The system will just have to react. We will get to see what happens.

https://www.udemy.com/blender3dmodelingguide/

https://www.udemy.com/python-3-deep-dive-part-1/

Those will work for self-motivated students, not so well for people who must have knowledge shoved down their throats. They have relatively frequent sales with the courses going for only $12.99. How much money does a school get per student per year? Gotta pay the salaries of those principals.


How well do dirt cheap education costs go with rights?

Last edited by psikeyhackr; 04-28-2019 at 11:14 AM..
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Old 04-28-2019, 01:15 PM
 
1,530 posts, read 291,134 times
Reputation: 1459
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
1. It doesn't matter. It's the way education is designed in this nation. Learn to live with it.

2. Why are people complaining? There are things to complain about, for sure. But also, since everyone went to school, everyone thinks they're an expert on schools.
Sorry, but this is a really poor, lazy response. "Stop whining about the Electoral College! It's our system!" "Stop crowing about unlimited spending by corporations and unions on elections! It's our system! Just accept it!"

I'm trying to think of a government body composed of civilians that more commonly has useless rockheads on them than school boards, and I'm drawing a blank. I would go so far as to argue that when you include all district school boards, dysfunctional school boards populated with boobs are the norm, not the exception.

Someone in this thread made the claim that school boards set curriculum. You and I both know better. Most of the time, the information they have about curriculum or anything else, comes, filtered, through unelected district officials. We as teachers are in the process of writing curriculum as we speak. Other times, I've been part of teams locked in rooms in the summer to write it for the state.

But since "democratic" is the ideal, why don't we reform and start electing school administrators? In my state, we even elect county coroners, registers of deeds, county clerks. Why in the world would we elect positions like that and not superintendents and principals, about which many more members of the public care? Would you support that, and if not, why are you so "anti-democratic?"

Last edited by chiociolliscalves; 04-28-2019 at 01:29 PM..
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:58 PM
 
Location: midwest
1,432 posts, read 1,030,527 times
Reputation: 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiociolliscalves View Post
Sorry, but this is a really poor, lazy response.
What a terrible thing to say to a school principal (retired).

Are you giving him a D or and F?
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Old 04-28-2019, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
4,393 posts, read 1,666,771 times
Reputation: 7997
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
You know, you really don't know very much about the education system in this nation, do you?

State boards of education are typically appointed by ELECTED officials.
Locally, in most localities, there are regular local boards of education meetings open to the public. For the most part, those on local boards of education are ELECTED. Due to sunshine laws, most make decisions in open meetings. People just like you -- egads! -- can speak before the local board of education and have your case heard. In many localities, the general public even gets to vote on school budgets. That's democracy. The fact that you don't like what the masses have put in place, and that you think it should change at your whim -- that's anti-democratic.

As far as changing the curriculum. I saw it evolve almost constantly in 33 years in the profession. But I'll tell you about change -- rapid change is often haphazard. Well-thought-out change is usually more effective, even if we are frustrated by how slowly it occurs.

Okay, 90% of everything is crud. I guess that includes 90% of your posts.
State board members are appointed according to politics, and elected officials hire staffers to advise them on who to appoint.

Local boards consist of a repeated incumbency of insurance salesmen, retired farmers and bored housewives, and their open meetings are in empty halls unless a hot-button issue makes the local media. They are highly dictatorial, lorded over by the superintendent, who has been there forever. Board members concern themselves only with the visible decorum of the schools..
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Old 04-29-2019, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,465 posts, read 10,404,462 times
Reputation: 20311
Quote:
Originally Posted by psikeyhackr View Post
I see you are a retired school principal. If you are retired now I presume you started in the system before cheap computers and the Internet existed. As far as I am concerned there is "education" and there is the "education business". There is some degree of overlap but they are not quite the same thing.

Education can be done without the system. This might present problems for people who want careers within the system and politicians who want children to think the right thoughts. I am not trying to change the education system from within. I am just telling people what options exist outside the system. The system will just have to react. We will get to see what happens.

https://www.udemy.com/blender3dmodelingguide/

https://www.udemy.com/python-3-deep-dive-part-1/

Those will work for self-motivated students, not so well for people who must have knowledge shoved down their throats. They have relatively frequent sales with the courses going for only $12.99. How much money does a school get per student per year? Gotta pay the salaries of those principals.


How well do dirt cheap education costs go with rights?
1. It's interesting how you leave out key parts of my post.

2. I may have started in my profession before cheap computers and the internet were invented, but I have a degree in computer programming, and had experience working with COBOL, PL1 and other computer languages back in the early 1970s. I ushered technology into my school when it was only getting started at that level, and have been "into" home computers since they first came along.

3. I'm not sure that "Education can be done without the system", although learning can be.

4. Actually, the system will not just have to react to your input. Has it thus far?
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Old 04-29-2019, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,465 posts, read 10,404,462 times
Reputation: 20311
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiociolliscalves View Post
Sorry, but this is a really poor, lazy response. "Stop whining about the Electoral College! It's our system!" "Stop crowing about unlimited spending by corporations and unions on elections! It's our system! Just accept it!"

I'm trying to think of a government body composed of civilians that more commonly has useless rockheads on them than school boards, and I'm drawing a blank. I would go so far as to argue that when you include all district school boards, dysfunctional school boards populated with boobs are the norm, not the exception.

Someone in this thread made the claim that school boards set curriculum. You and I both know better. Most of the time, the information they have about curriculum or anything else, comes, filtered, through unelected district officials. We as teachers are in the process of writing curriculum as we speak. Other times, I've been part of teams locked in rooms in the summer to write it for the state.

But since "democratic" is the ideal, why don't we reform and start electing school administrators? In my state, we even elect county coroners, registers of deeds, county clerks. Why in the world would we elect positions like that and not superintendents and principals, about which many more members of the public care? Would you support that, and if not, why are you so "anti-democratic?"
No. Sorry. That's just a knee jerk reaction.

The public education system has plenty of input from the citizenry that are interested in doing more than just complaining on a forum. There is input taken at the state level, and even more so on the local level. Change occurs, sometimes blessedly slowly. I'm advocating that education is responsive -- over time -- to citizen input.

"useless rockheads on school boards"...who were elected by voters. That's democracy. I guess you don't like democracy.

Good. I'm glad you're involved in writing curriculum. But remember, as you write it, there are other teachers and parents who will eventually think you're a "useless rockhead".

If you want to elect principals, okay...as long as you're willing to also elect teachers.
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