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Then you need to explain how learning is distinguished from education without being indoctrination.
The line between learning and education will be the one between what can be self taught and what cannot. I will use my field, science, as an example. The amount of knowledge that can be self taught is only limited by what is published in books, journals, etc. But the skill of how to "do" science cannot be self taught as it requires peers, mentors, etc. to challenge you and force you to "defend" your thesis. You could read every book written and still not be able to do that. That is the difference between learning science and a science education.
But the skill of how to "do" science cannot be self taught as it requires peers, mentors, etc. to challenge you and force you to "defend" your thesis. You could read every book written and still not be able to do that. That is the difference between learning science and a science education.
Who were Galileo's peers that taught him to do science?
Who were Galileo's peers that taught him to do science?
Gallileo had many peers.
Rene Descartes was one. There were jesuit priests who were involved in science at the time. Giovanni Riccioli was one of those. Marin Mersenne was another contemporary of Gallileo. We don't always hear about these men, but they were working and corresponding with Galileo during his lifetime. Johannes Kepler was another peer of Galileo.
Galileo biographies often lionize him by presenting him as a lone champion for experimentation and science, but that is simply not true. Galileo openly challenged Aristotelian thought and the church hierarchy was deeply tied to an Aristotelian world view. Galileo was neither unique nor more extreme in his criticism of Aristotle than many of his contemporaries, however.
The first amendment argument is based on the idea that the school is the government and students the citizens. But that does not hold water, as evidenced by the fact students cannot curse and scream and be disruptive to the learning environment and expect no punishment from the government. I think most people understand that cursing at teachers and other students should not be allowed in school, thus students do not have first amendment rights/protections under the law.
True, but I'm not sure that's a student vs adult issue. It's illegal for an adult to scream "fire" in a crowded theater, so that's another example of speech not protected under the First Amendment. Hate speech by adults is also illegal, so that's another example of speech not protected under the First Amendment. And besides, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.
Who were Galileo's peers that taught him to do science?
The other scientists and scholars at the University he attended. He certainly wasn’t self taught, you know he had a classical education correct? Most obvious of which would be Orsini who acted as patron, mentor and collaborator. He also corresponded (and was frequently known to butt heads scientifically) with Kepler, who btw, was the one correct about the origin of earths tides, not Galileo. Due to the realities of travel of the time period, the importance of correspondence as peer review cannot be overstated. Kepler was absolutely Galileo’s peer and served in that challenging and ultimately more correct voice.
True, but I'm not sure that's a student vs adult issue. It's illegal for an adult to scream "fire" in a crowded theater, so that's another example of speech not protected under the First Amendment. Hate speech by adults is also illegal, so that's another example of speech not protected under the First Amendment. And besides, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.
You think saying the n word is illegal? Please cite a statute, that makes it illegal to just say those sorts of words. Because as recently as 2017 SCOTUS has said otherwise, Matal v Tam. Sorry but you are 100% wrong here.
And yes freedom of speech absolutely means freedom from legal consequence specifically from the government. That is literally all it means, that your government cannot punish its citizens for what they say.
The issue with schools and freedom of speech hinges solely upon the notion that schools are acting as the government, in legal cases that has been found to NOT be the case, thus they can abridge students speech.
You think saying the n word is illegal? Please cite a statute, that makes it illegal to just say those sorts of words. Because as recently as 2017 SCOTUS has said otherwise, Matal v Tam. Sorry but you are 100% wrong here.
I looked up that case, and it has nothing really to do with what I was talking about. I also assume you are agreeing with me that it's illegal for an adult to scream "fire" in a crowded theater.
In any case, I'm not a lawyer, and neither are you. But if we are going based on Supreme Court cases, then didn't Tinker vs Des Moines decide that the 1st Amendment does apply to students?
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The issue with schools and freedom of speech hinges solely upon the notion that schools are acting as the government, in legal cases that has been found to NOT be the case, thus they can abridge students speech.
I looked up that case, and it has nothing really to do with what I was talking about.
You claimed hate speech is illegal. It is not, as evidenced by that case.
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I also assume you are agreeing with me that it's illegal for an adult to scream "fire" in a crowded theater.
Everyone knows that. Schenck v US 19-something. It is historic case law.
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In any case, I'm not a lawyer, and neither are you. But if we are going based on Supreme Court cases, then didn't Tinker vs Des Moines decide that the 1st Amendment does apply to students?
It is clear that was specifically political speech. It is also equally clear that students are punished for speech that is completely legal for adults; things like cursing. Do you really think that is not the case?
BTW, I may not be a lawyer but I have 6 graduate credits in educational/school law and have actually had to study many of the cases relevant to this conversation. How many classes on school law do you have under your belt?
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What Supreme Court case says that?
Bethel v Fraser 1984
Specifically found students do not have freedom of speech when it comes to cursing (as I stated earlier)
Hazelwood v Kuhlmeier 1988
Specifically found schools can censor students involved in school activities (a key component of the Tinker test btw)
You claimed hate speech is illegal. It is not, as evidenced by that case.
That case was not about what anybody would consider to be hate speech.
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Everyone knows that. Schenck v US 19-something. It is historic case law.
So you are agreeing that there are limits to free speech, regardless of whether or not you are an adult.
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It is clear that was specifically political speech. It is also equally clear that students are punished for speech that is completely legal for adults; things like cursing. Do you really think that is not the case?
But there is a big difference between detention in school vs jail time. Children do not get criminal records for cursing in school, nor for anything else that would be legal for an adult. Possible exceptions would be things like underage drinking, but, in that case, the law specifically specifies an age.
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BTW, I may not be a lawyer but I have 6 graduate credits in educational/school law and have actually had to study many of the cases relevant to this conversation. How many classes on school law do you have under your belt?
I don't really care.
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Bethel v Fraser 1984
Specifically found students do not have freedom of speech when it comes to cursing (as I stated earlier)
Hazelwood v Kuhlmeier 1988
Specifically found schools can censor students involved in school activities (a key component of the Tinker test btw)
Again, I seriously doubt that students are going to jail for cursing in school.
Education is NOT mentioned in this document, and with good reason. The Founders believed in education, of course, but also believed the Federal Government had no business being involved. Education was best handled at the local level with support from the states.
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