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Old 05-02-2019, 11:10 AM
 
29 posts, read 9,471 times
Reputation: 70

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Congrats to you and your kiddo for coming up with a plan and making it work. I am sure you are - but you should be proud of her.
Thank!

I am proud of her. I know it was quite difficult.
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Old 05-02-2019, 11:45 AM
 
29 posts, read 9,471 times
Reputation: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla View Post
It's not just about getting a job though. I know people who have low self esteem due to not having a degree. This in spite of the fact they have a decent career. There are also those who feel they missed out on the "college experience".
Yee, let imagine a little. You are 19 years old and you looking at some 26 years old college graduate. You see you can do the job better. What's important your supervisor see that. But you have no degree and your employer do not care.

It definitely is dangerous for one self-esteem. I am not quite sure for whose self-esteem though.

But obviously, If a degree is important for you just go and get it.

I am talking about the case when someone's goal to learn software engineering, get a job and be able to be very professional and educated in it.

I see them as separate goals and you get exactly what you wanted. A mistake is to go for one goal and then complain it is difficult to achieve another. That exactly what we see when people complain about how difficult to find a good job after college.

U.S has an education crisis. And mixing those two goals is the reason for that crisis.

Almost everyone goes to a college and yet, each year U.S imports tens of thousand IT specialist. For a foreign IT specialist, it is 1000 times more difficult to get a job in U.S. Believe me I've done it. The visa process is so difficult and slow... 999 companies of 1000 do not want even to talk to you. For a U.S. citizen or permanent resident, finding a job is radically easier. And U.S. colleges cannot fill those job vocations anyway.

So yes, I think self-esteem should be hurt badly.

I am trying to offer a solution. Cheap, fast and efficient.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Tucson Arizona
3,876 posts, read 1,648,337 times
Reputation: 10159
When my brother was looking at college in the late 70s, there were no programming classes (or internet), so he taught himself from books.
He's had a long and lucrative career.

I suspect most older IT pros have similar stories, so the "need" for a college degree isn't entrenched.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:29 PM
 
Location: New York
743 posts, read 457,938 times
Reputation: 1945
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazarus_long View Post
She was not really learning by herself. I was providing tasks and materials to study. It was more like a guided education.

Complete self-education is another story. That how I learned myself. But I took me about 6 years. It is much more difficult.
Congrats. I am also self taught, it was difficult because there were not the online learning resources there are now, but I was working in the legal field and desperately wanted a career change.

I am now going to school part time to get my MS in computer science, because I want to get the academic understanding of CS that my self-education didn't really cover (I was more focused on the practicalities of understanding the application and getting a job).

I would definitely recommend such a path to people in lieu of college. Or you can attend part time while working at an entry-level. This definitely doesn't work for all industries (like law where your academic pedigree matters most), but it can be successful path in IT.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Ozark Mountains
634 posts, read 466,732 times
Reputation: 787
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazarus_long View Post
If your child does not want or cannot go to college, you may be interested in the story of my daughter’s professional education.

Very short version.

She learned Programming with my help and got a software engineer job when she was nineteen years old. The whole process took about 15 months. She was studying approximately 15 hours per week.

Longer version.

I have been programming for more than 30 years. I have no college degree. Instead, I have been teaching computer science to my self all that time. I never had any problems finding a software engineer job.

My daughter decided to learn computer science with my help at the end of her senior year. She started to study a couple of hours after school and more on weekends.

She was learning reading by books and sites, watching videos, but most of all, by writing programs. She was writing a lot of programs in Python and C++. I was reviewing her work, giving some hints and explaining the most difficult ideas.

After she finished high school, she got a full-time low paying job and continued study in the same way.

Fifteen months after she started, I searched in google for an entry-level position for her and found it in less than one minute. I was expecting her to fail many times before she got the first job.

The interview process has four stages, starting from online test and ending with the on-site interview. On the last interview, my daughter was competing against four other candidates. All of them had college degrees.

She got a job offer and started to live independently in another state when she was 19.

Now she has three years of experience, was promoted several times and quite happy with her career.

If someone wants to try this approach, I can help.
Thanks!!
Very interesting and relaxing for me.
My 23 years old son is not longer at the University for lack of resources. He was studying Biology. Now he owes $17,000 dollars to the University.
Many college kids are in this situation now, they owe money and can not continue their education.
I will forward to him your original post, many thanks !
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Old 05-02-2019, 01:05 PM
 
Location: midwest
1,432 posts, read 1,030,032 times
Reputation: 880
I do not see why kids could not start learning selected stuff by 7th grade, possibly earlier.

https://www.udemy.com/

Udemy says their courses are $50 to $200. But I have been watching their website regularly, almost 25% of the time they have courses on sale for $11 to $15, so that $200 price is almost irrelevant. Just watch them and catch the course you want on sale.

I have watched kids at a charter high school read about igneous rock on a computer screen. I don't understand what a lot of these "professional educators" think they are doing with computers. Use technology to teach kids to hate learning! Great Idea!!!


Biology Anyone?
https://www.udemy.com/courses/search...sac&kw=biology
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Old 05-02-2019, 02:25 PM
 
29 posts, read 9,471 times
Reputation: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Report back when people without degrees are earning as much as people with degrees.
Not having a degree is not my point. The point is to know your profession. If people do not know a better way to do it they go the usual way - college. It does not mean this is the only way. It does not mean this way is the best.

A statistic can be deceiving.

If someone would show statistic comparing, for example, self-educated software engineer with college-educated it would interesting. Statistics you talking about, mostly compares people were studying to people who were not.
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Old 05-02-2019, 02:40 PM
 
29 posts, read 9,471 times
Reputation: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by psikeyhackr View Post
I do not see why kids could not start learning selected stuff by 7th grade, possibly earlier.

https://www.udemy.com/

Udemy says their courses are $50 to $200. But I have been watching their website regularly, almost 25% of the time they have courses on sale for $11 to $15, so that $200 price is almost irrelevant. Just watch them and catch the course you want on sale.

I have watched kids at a charter high school read about igneous rock on a computer screen. I don't understand what a lot of these "professional educators" think they are doing with computers. Use technology to teach kids to hate learning! Great Idea!!!


Biology Anyone?
https://www.udemy.com/courses/search...sac&kw=biology
My son was writing some simple code with graphics when he was 6 years old. In 7th grade, one can be a professional

You won't believe how fast and efficient can be education if one wants to learn and a teacher can guide him the right way.

Cannot say anything useful about biology. But I am quite sure I can reproduce the same process with Cybersecurity, System administration/networking, embedded programming/Robots. Those are areas I have enough knowledge and experience.

And those courses are for self-education. I am talking about guided education. I saw many times how difficult for people to find the right way on their own. My daughter wouldn't do it for example.
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Old 05-02-2019, 04:17 PM
 
16,588 posts, read 14,066,182 times
Reputation: 20556
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Are you sure about that? I understand this is indirect but the BLS describes the typical entry level education required for programmers as a 4-year degree.
https://qz.com/649409/two-out-of-thr...33-developers/
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Old 05-02-2019, 04:24 PM
 
Location: midwest
1,432 posts, read 1,030,032 times
Reputation: 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazarus_long View Post
My son was writing some simple code with graphics when he was 6 years old. In 7th grade, one can be a professional

You won't believe how fast and efficient can be education if one wants to learn and a teacher can guide him the right way.

Cannot say anything useful about biology. But I am quite sure I can reproduce the same process with Cybersecurity, System administration/networking, embedded programming/Robots. Those are areas I have enough knowledge and experience.

And those courses are for self-education. I am talking about guided education. I saw many times how difficult for people to find the right way on their own. My daughter wouldn't do it for example.
Is Robert Heinlein haunting or suing you Lazarus?

I just mentioned biology because it was in the post just previous to mine. I was never that interested.

Plenty of people seem to have the problem of not even knowing what they are interested in. When Udemy has a sale the courses cost less than 2 science fiction books which go for $8 these days. The time is the real cost. They refund the money within 30 days if you want but you might spend $100 worth of time learning the subject is not interesting.

Curiously they have more than 10 times as many courses on Blender as they do in Biology.
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