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Old 05-02-2019, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Texas
13,480 posts, read 8,378,016 times
Reputation: 25948

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazarus_long View Post
Almost everyone goes to a college and yet, each year U.S imports tens of thousand IT specialist. For a foreign IT specialist, it is 1000 times more difficult to get a job in U.S. Believe me I've done it. The visa process is so difficult and slow... 999 companies of 1000 do not want even to talk to you. For a U.S. citizen or permanent resident, finding a job is radically easier. And U.S. colleges cannot fill those job vocations anyway.
.
This is wrong in many ways. Companies in the USA love to hire people on H1-B visas because they are cheaper to hire.

Lots of Americans graduate from college every year with IT degrees. They find these jobs have gone to people with H1-B visas. I also think it's wrong to stereotype Americans as being "not technical".

Not falling for this at all.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:54 PM
 
Location: southern california
61,288 posts, read 87,405,055 times
Reputation: 55562
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Report back when people without degrees are earning as much as people with degrees.




Average student loan 28 thousand -first 5 years work average salary 48000 thousand
Electrician school fee 1 to 11 thousand total -expected average wage 56 thousand with earning potential up to 93 thousand
The people posting to say college grades out earn the trades are using stats 40 years old
Google it
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Old 05-02-2019, 08:05 PM
 
38 posts, read 33,352 times
Reputation: 113
I was asked how to learn computer science on your own. Pure self-education without supervision and my involvement. This is not how my daughter was learning. I was supervising and guiding her education.
But this is how I was learning my self. And actually, I am still learning.

How to teach your self computer science without any external help.

You are learning something by doing it. It means you learn Programming mostly by writing programs. It is like a child learning to speak or to walk.

You can help your self by reading books, watching videos doing some other supporting activities. But you understand something only if you can apply it in a program. The best way to be sure you understand some idea to write a working program using it. For example, if you want to understand computer graphics write a game or graphics editor.

All your education is a long path going from one programming task to another. For the first task choose something so simple you sure you can do it. Like, print “hello.” Each next task should require slightly more then you can do right now. But you should be able to learn what you are missing in 1-2 weeks and finish the task. If you cannot solve the task choose simpler task and repeat.

It may be difficult to know what you can do in 2 weeks before you learn how to do it. But try to do your best.

Choose tasks which are more interesting for you if you like games write games. If you like mathematics write some calculation and so on.

Celebrate every small success. If you do a task per week for two years, it may be enough for you to become a professional even if each task is only slightly harder then the previous one. But you need to support your motivation. So every finished task is a great success.

One of the most important question what should I study and in what particular order? The key is to study only what you really need. This way you will learn to do real programming faster. And then you can expand your knowledge more efficiently.

Here is a simple algorithm allowing you to find you what knowledge and experience you really need to have.

Imagine you already are a professional software developer. What would you like to do?

You choose a big project you want to make. For example, to write a real game. Describe what that game should do.

Now try to do it. You cannot do it right now. What prevents you? What don’t you know how to do? Choose one small obstacle.

For example, you want to write a game, but you do not know how to draw any graphics. Here you small task – write a program drawing a square.

When you solve this task repeat again, what does stop you know? Maybe you do not know how to react to the keyboard? Then come up with a very simple task doing it. Solve this task.

Repeat.

Going this way toward a big program means you are learning exactly what you need to write this program. It can be a programming language, computer architecture, mathematics, physics, game theory, AI, quantum physics

When you choose and finished several big projects accordingly job you want to be doing, you got all minimal knowledge and experience to do this job.

You can explore each field you are studying but not too far. Otherwise, you may start to learn a lot of materials you do not need right now, and that means you won’t study what you need.

Your understanding of what you want to do on your future job may change during the process. You address it by choosing big projects accordingly. If your goals changed dramatically, you could abandon some projects. But in the end, you have enough big projects to cover your desired field of work.

Read a lot of source code written by others. Try to learn the correct coding style. Your code should be readable as a good book. Try to find out what you are missing to do what you do better.

Then you should learn how to find a job and how to pass the technical interview. But this is a separate story.

Here I published a list of recommended books and videos.
https://www.anysolo.com/books-and-vi...er-programmer/

Last edited by lazarus_long; 05-02-2019 at 08:25 PM..
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Old 05-02-2019, 08:28 PM
 
6,844 posts, read 3,958,062 times
Reputation: 15859
First of all congrats to the OP and his daughter. I would say the source of her success was not only the fact she had professional, one on one tutoring on learning coding and getting hired for more than a year, but that she was motivated to work in this field.
But I have to say very few people desire or want to be coders. And hardly any of them have a parent that can guide and tutor them as the OP did. So the odds of replicating the OP's experience are very slim.
As a father of three grown adults with children of their own, none of my children had any interest in working with computers which I did for a living (but as a sys admin and dba - I didn't want to be a coder either), or in any of my hobbies like playing music, using a microscope or telescope, photography and videography.
In fact, except for people whose parents were doctors or lawyers, I don't personally know any people who followed in their parents' footsteps. For the most part, every generation wants to go their own way, and has little interest in their parents' way.
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Old 05-02-2019, 08:59 PM
 
19,778 posts, read 18,073,660 times
Reputation: 17267
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Your link shows self-reported "education" for the cadre as:
CS or related BS - 34.8%
CS or related BA - 8.5%
MS in CS or related - 19.7%
Ph.D inc CS or related - 2.1%
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Old 05-02-2019, 09:17 PM
 
38 posts, read 33,352 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla View Post
This is wrong in many ways. Companies in the USA love to hire people on H1-B visas because they are cheaper to hire.

Lots of Americans graduate from college every year with IT degrees. They find these jobs have gone to people with H1-B visas. I also think it's wrong to stereotype Americans as being "not technical".

Not falling for this at all.
I try to explain better:
Imagine you are a person who tries to get an H1B visa. You have sent your resume to 1000 companies. 999 of your resume go into the garbage as soon as they see you require a visa. Next time when you are trying to find a job try to ignore 999 contacts from 1000.

Then, suppose you find a company who wants to make you H1B visa. I saw a lot of really great developers who could not find one such company. But suppose they did.

* This company pays about $15,000 to a lowers and government for the visa.
* Then it turned out there are twice more applications than the quota allows.
* USCS makes a lottery. 50% chance this company just loses all the money and time.
* Then if the company is lucky it waits for about 9 months for the employee to be able to start to work.

This is why almost every company does not want to bother with H1B. And our potential H1B employee should apply 1000 times more effort to find a company willing go do H1B.

When you find a company willing to make you H1B you discover the rest of the world also found that company. And you compete with a huge amount of other people. To get the job you have to be a hell of a developer.

So get H1B job is insanely more difficult. When you do not require an H1B visa to find a software engineer job is much much easier.

I did found a job from outside and from inside the U.S., I can compare.

To confirm the point, a simple question:

Usually, H1B software engineer gets a new job right after they got a green card. At this moment the second employer has no choice but to pay a fair salary. Or the first employer raises salary. Anyway, our engineer ends up with a dicent salary.

Now the question, why those people who got nice academic college education cannot fill those positions? Why fresh green card holders get the job again? This second time they ask the same money. They have bad English. They do not know the country. Why they get a job with discent salary again? And usually, they do it very fast and easy. In the same time, our college graduates complain about how difficult is to find a job?

My answer there are not enough experienced software engineers inside the U.S. ready to compete for those job positions.

It is always more comfortable to assume it is an evil plot against them. But in reality, they just to have better knowledge and experience in areas required by employers. That simple.

You can think you can solve the problem by stopping H1B completely. But in this case, instead of some part of college graduates, the whole country won't be able to compete.

The only solution to teach more competitive software engineers.

It is not about how technical or smart people are. This is about how and what they are learning.

This is what I am trying to fix here.
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Old 05-02-2019, 09:22 PM
 
19,778 posts, read 18,073,660 times
Reputation: 17267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
Average student loan 28 thousand -first 5 years work average salary 48000 thousand
Electrician school fee 1 to 11 thousand total -expected average wage 56 thousand with earning potential up to 93 thousand
The people posting to say college grades out earn the trades are using stats 40 years old
Google it

Average salary for those with a HS diploma - ~$38,500 with about 5% unemployment.
Average salary for those with a BS or BA degree - $59,100 with about 2.8% unemployment.

There is no question people in various trades can make great money. But there are downsides - trade jobs tend to be more dangerous and trade careers tend to be shorter.
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Old 05-02-2019, 09:27 PM
 
19,778 posts, read 18,073,660 times
Reputation: 17267
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazarus_long View Post
I try to explain better:
Imagine you are a person who tries to get an H1B visa. You have sent your resume to 1000 companies. 999 of your resume go into the garbage as soon as they see you require a visa. Next time when you are trying to find a job try to ignore 999 contacts from 1000.

Then, suppose you find a company who wants to make you H1B visa. I saw a lot of really great developers who could not find one such company. But suppose they did.

* This company pays about $15,000 to a lowers and government for the visa.
* Then it turned out there are twice more applications than the quota allows.
* USCS makes a lottery. 50% chance this company just loses all the money and time.
* Then if the company is lucky it waits for about 9 months for the employee to be able to start to work.

This is why almost every company does not want to bother with H1B. And our potential H1B employee should apply 1000 times more effort to find a company willing go do H1B.

When you find a company willing to make you H1B you discover the rest of the world also found that company. And you compete with a huge amount of other people. To get the job you have to be a hell of a developer.

So get H1B job is insanely more difficult. When you do not require an H1B visa to find a software engineer job is much much easier.

I did found a job from outside and from inside the U.S., I can compare.

To confirm the point, a simple question:

Usually, H1B software engineer gets a new job right after they got a green card. At this moment the second employer has no choice but to pay a fair salary. Or the first employer raises salary. Anyway, our engineer ends up with a dicent salary.

Now the question, why those people who got nice academic college education cannot fill those positions? Why fresh green card holders get the job again? This second time they ask the same money. They have bad English. They do not know the country. Why they get a job with discent salary again? And usually, they do it very fast and easy. In the same time, our college graduates complain about how difficult is to find a job?

My answer there are not enough experienced software engineers inside the U.S. ready to compete for those job positions.

It is always more comfortable to assume it is an evil plot against them. But in reality, they just to have better knowledge and experience in areas required by employers. That simple.

You can think you can solve the problem by stopping H1B completely. But in this case, instead of some part of college graduates, the whole country won't be able to compete.

The only solution to teach more competitive software engineers.

It is not about how technical or smart people are. This is about how and what they are learning.

This is what I am trying to fix here.
There are about 420,000 H1-B visa holders in The US right now, 300,000+ are Indian.
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Old 05-02-2019, 09:32 PM
 
38 posts, read 33,352 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobspez View Post
. And hardly any of them have a parent that can guide and tutor them as the OP did. So the odds of replicating the OP's experience are very slim.
If anyone wants to replicate that process I can guide them the same way I guided my daughter. Not everyone can do programming even if they want but it only requires a month to see if they can handle the load.

I cannot do anything if one does not want anything to do with computers. I know I have another daughter like this

I guess there are people who want but think that is impossible because their parent cannot afford education.

Last edited by lazarus_long; 05-02-2019 at 09:52 PM..
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Old 05-02-2019, 09:45 PM
 
38 posts, read 33,352 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
There are about 420,000 H1-B visa holders in The US right now, 300,000+ are Indian.
Ok. And why I and a lot of other developers have no problems competing with those 300,000+? Do not tell me it is all about a small salary. It is not my case

As I said before any who moved from H1B to green card raises salary but have no problems finding a job.

And finally, a big part of those 300,000 are going to get green cards and a bigger salary and somehow again steal the job from beautifully college educated software engineers.
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