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Old 05-03-2019, 06:56 AM
Status: "Disagreeing is not the same thing as trolling." (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: Texas
9,445 posts, read 3,634,340 times
Reputation: 19466

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazarus_long View Post
Ok. And why I and a lot of other developers have no problems competing with those 300,000+? Do not tell me it is all about a small salary. .
It is about smaller salary. A corporation pays lower salaries to H1-B visa holders than a citizen doing the exact same job. Many large businesses in my area only hire H1-B visa holders now, and American citizens are pushed into contract-only labor. Many H1-B visa holders have lower level technical jobs, not rare or unique high-level skills that would be impossible to find in the U.S.
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Old 05-03-2019, 07:46 AM
 
476 posts, read 254,583 times
Reputation: 633
Programming has been one of the great equalizing jobs. In my 30+ years experience nobody cared about degrees. It was only about knowledge, experience, and the ability to deliver.

The hardest part is getting that first job when you have no experience.

The other thing is that in this industry you have to be willing to keep learning forever. I would say about every 5 years you may have to totally reinvent yourself and revamp your skills. You may be able to find a specialized niche that you can ride for a long time, maybe even for a full career, but you have to be ready for that niche to disappear.

You will also need a plan for the long term. Bank as much as you can for retirement while your pay is high because ageism is a real thing in this industry.
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Old 05-03-2019, 08:00 AM
 
29 posts, read 9,442 times
Reputation: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla View Post
It is about smaller salary. A corporation pays lower salaries to H1-B visa holders than a citizen doing the exact same job. Many large businesses in my area only hire H1-B visa holders now, and American citizens are pushed into contract-only labor. Many H1-B visa holders have lower level technical jobs, not rare or unique high-level skills that would be impossible to find in the U.S.
H1b salary statistic is public. Check this site: https://h1bdata.info/
Enter some city and "software engineer."

This data shows real positions with real salaries.

There are no US citizens who want $90,000 salary as a software engineer doing "low-level technical jobs"?

I was one of those numbers in that database. I was not doing a low-level technical job.

And again let's imaging H1b salary that smaller. Those H1B holders become green card holders and then what? No reason to work for less money. Do you think they cannot find a job? No, they continue to get great jobs. Why? Because there are too many job position and not enough qualified software engineers.

So people can complain or they can learn. I am offering a way to learn.
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Old 05-03-2019, 10:10 AM
 
Location: New York
743 posts, read 457,620 times
Reputation: 1945
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazarus_long View Post
H1b salary statistic is public. Check this site: https://h1bdata.info/
Enter some city and "software engineer."

This data shows real positions with real salaries.

There are no US citizens who want $90,000 salary as a software engineer doing "low-level technical jobs"?

I was one of those numbers in that database. I was not doing a low-level technical job.

And again let's imaging H1b salary that smaller. Those H1B holders become green card holders and then what? No reason to work for less money. Do you think they cannot find a job? No, they continue to get great jobs. Why? Because there are too many job position and not enough qualified software engineers.

So people can complain or they can learn. I am offering a way to learn.


I agree with you. I work in a company which contracts with vendors most of the 'low level IT' tasks that people talk about here (development, L1-L3 technical support, QA testing, automation testing, etc). There are hardly any on-site US citizens who do these roles, and those that do have taken on management roles and their technical skills are years outdated.

In the past year, there has been a huge push to start 'in-sourcing' engineering talent. The company is searching nationwide for US-Citizen engineers especially with in-demand skill-sets like Dev Ops, Cloud, ML/AI, C++, etc. Unfortunately, it has been hard - there are many more engineering jobs open then there are US citizens to fill them. The last count I heard is somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 unfilled positions are open at any given time.

Poverty, hardship and lack of money has a way of pushing you outside your comfort zone. I was a naive kid who thought that if I got good grades in the 'easy' road, got an advanced degree, that jobs would be out there. But I had a hard wake-up call in 2009-10 when I was fighting in a glutted market with thousands of other unemployed law school graduates who made the same choices. Work was slim pickings in low-wage contract jobs. When those dried up I worked for minimum wage.

No one in my family went to college, so I didn't have the great guidance you gave to your daughter, but I *did* have friends I had made who were the dreaded H1B employees.... They of all people encouraged me to self-learn programming, offered help and encouragement. About a year after I started studying I got my first entry-level job (full time, with benefits!) paying far more than I would have ever managed if I had stayed in temp law work. I haven't looked back since then.

Moral of the story - Millennials have been sold this bill of goods that you have to spend 6-figures on a college degree to attain 'success' but reality isn't matching the marketing. I wish I hadn't listened to 'conventional' wisdom and had the guidance your daughter did! I encourage the same to new college students in my family.... if only they listened.
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Old 05-03-2019, 11:02 AM
 
29 posts, read 9,442 times
Reputation: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladlensky View Post
Moral of the story - Millennials have been sold this bill of goods that you have to spend 6-figures on a college degree to attain 'success' but reality isn't matching the marketing. I wish I hadn't listened to 'conventional' wisdom and had the guidance your daughter did! I encourage the same to new college students in my family.... if only they listened.
Thank you. It helps when some see the same problem you see.
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Old 05-04-2019, 03:27 AM
 
Location: Outside US
1,173 posts, read 466,338 times
Reputation: 1534
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazarus_long View Post
If your child does not want or cannot go to college, you may be interested in the story of my daughter’s professional education.

Very short version.

She learned Programming with my help and got a software engineer job when she was nineteen years old. The whole process took about 15 months. She was studying approximately 15 hours per week.

Longer version.

I have been programming for more than 30 years. I have no college degree. Instead, I have been teaching computer science to my self all that time. I never had any problems finding a software engineer job.

My daughter decided to learn computer science with my help at the end of her senior year. She started to study a couple of hours after school and more on weekends.

She was learning reading by books and sites, watching videos, but most of all, by writing programs. She was writing a lot of programs in Python and C++. I was reviewing her work, giving some hints and explaining the most difficult ideas.

After she finished high school, she got a full-time low paying job and continued study in the same way.

Fifteen months after she started, I searched in google for an entry-level position for her and found it in less than one minute. I was expecting her to fail many times before she got the first job.

The interview process has four stages, starting from online test and ending with the on-site interview. On the last interview, my daughter was competing against four other candidates. All of them had college degrees.

She got a job offer and started to live independently in another state when she was 19.

Now she has three years of experience, was promoted several times and quite happy with her career.

If someone wants to try this approach, I can help.
Great story and it's shifting un this direction because of the cost of even a public uni and many degrees are OUTDATED for the workforce.
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Old 05-27-2019, 06:36 AM
 
15 posts, read 2,409 times
Reputation: 35
Thanks for sharing this wonderful career story , this will defiantly help to me and others as well .
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Old 05-27-2019, 07:30 AM
 
10,181 posts, read 12,235,799 times
Reputation: 14042
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Report back when people without degrees are earning as much as people with degrees.
Be careful with this type of reasoning:

There are millions of folks with degrees working at places like Starbucks! Why? They got a useless degree and most have college debt too!

Not all college degrees = huge financial success.

By the same argument here are a few success stories with no college degree:

Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg both dropped out of Harvard. Both were billionaires shortly thereafter

Michael Jordan dropped out of UNC Chapel Hill

Tiger Woods dropped out of Stanford.


All great schools, all dropouts and easily the most successful in their fields. Some people don't want to be limited in their potential and a brick and mortar institution can be confining.
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Old 05-27-2019, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Arizona
1,112 posts, read 1,094,733 times
Reputation: 1598
Reminds me of that commercial: "What do you do with a degree in Art History? You wear a nose ring and pour coffee for a living"
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Old 06-01-2019, 06:57 PM
 
Location: The end of the world
594 posts, read 222,821 times
Reputation: 433
........What OP did was actually what all parents should do if they have no idea about education.

Bare in mind if his daughter could get fired for multiple reasons at anytime. So currently she is safe at what she does but that does not certify her actually will be able to stay in that position at all.

The reason for the degree is in terms of job outlook requirements. Meaning you want a pension from a non-for-profit organization unlike a private employer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slater View Post
Reminds me of that commercial: "What do you do with a degree in Art History? You wear a nose ring and pour coffee for a living"
Art history gains you the ability to work in a variety of places and have access to many different kinds of facilities. Imagine sitting inside of an office and being able to rate works??? You think you will get that position??? You

They make a lot of money and gets lots of respect within there circles. See those fancy dancing girls in dresses. Those are the type of women that circles them
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