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View Poll Results: Should we pass tort reform legislation in order to discourage zero tolerance policies?
Yes 7 41.18%
No 10 58.82%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-22-2019, 06:59 PM
 
6,839 posts, read 3,713,227 times
Reputation: 18078

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That was my 3rd paragraph. If you boil down all the various discussions to their essence, that's about all it takes. The hard part is a willingness to be politically incorrect and do it.

a. Reward good teachers: Students, parents, and other teachers know who the good ones are.
b. Get rid of the bad ones: Again, students, parents, and other teachers know. Why is it so hard to admit there are bad teachers and get rid of them? Heck just an admission by the system that there are bad teachers would restore a lot of credibility.
c. High expectations. Not standardized tests but having the teachers hold high expectations for their students. Don't teach to the bottom of the class and don't spend the class dealing with those few disruptors. Students and teachers know who the disruptors are. Get rid of them. We waste way too much time on getting the bottom few to pass at the expense of the vast majority who are there to learn. Hold to high standards in the class room and let the chips fall where they may. The best will appreciate it and won't matter to the worst either way.
d. Basics first. No mumbo jumbo, no latest, socially and politically correct way to do whatever. 2+2=4. 4-2=2.

None of this is really hard and most is obvious. But it will gore a lot of oxen who make a living off psychobabble and flavor of the month.
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Old 05-23-2019, 02:41 AM
 
6,954 posts, read 3,860,525 times
Reputation: 14779
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
For those who don't read links the first time they're posted:

https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releas...dance-package-
Somebody adds as many as five links in a random post and every reader should click all of them? Hah!

A quick look at a single link, however, reveals that Obama issued nothing and nothing went into "effect." A smattering of reading comprehension would allow even the most casual reader to see a few key words (highlighted here) indicate the entire document was nothing more than advisory:
"The U.S. Department of Education (ED), in collaboration with the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ), today released a school discipline guidance package that will assist states, districts and schools in developing practices and strategies to enhance school climate, and ensure those policies and practices comply with federal law."
It is baffling trying to understand why so many people work so hard to distort that which they post.
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Old 05-23-2019, 03:04 AM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
33,881 posts, read 42,096,122 times
Reputation: 43286
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
Somebody adds as many as five links in a random post and every reader should click all of them? Hah!

A quick look at a single link, however, reveals that Obama issued nothing and nothing went into "effect." A smattering of reading comprehension would allow even the most casual reader to see a few key words (highlighted here) indicate the entire document was nothing more than advisory:
"The U.S. Department of Education (ED), in collaboration with the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ), today released a school discipline guidance package that will assist states, districts and schools in developing practices and strategies to enhance school climate, and ensure those policies and practices comply with federal law."
It is baffling trying to understand why so many people work so hard to distort that which they post.
I too find it baffling trying to understand why people work so hard denying something that happened. Of course, I didn't teach for 30+ years and wasn't involved when the Administration promulgated the guidelines and sat through literally hours of in service about them or anything.
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Old 05-23-2019, 04:49 AM
 
5,607 posts, read 3,662,519 times
Reputation: 5426
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
This is where I have a slight disagreement. While accountability was demanded by the voters, the specifics of standardized testing, as well as most of the other changes going back decades where created by those in education (I won't say teachers specifically, but the public doesn't differentiate between teachers, administrators, and education theorists; to the public they are all teachers) as the "how" the voters wanted.

The voters don't dream up these things and put them on the ballot. They simply ask for accountability or discipline or whatever. The education establishment responds with zero tolerance or standardized testing or flavor of the month. And the voters say ok. Until they find out the solution isn't what they wanted and the establishment proposes a new solution.

Honestly I don't think what the voters want today is any different than what they wanted 50 years ago -- reward and encourage high quality teachers; get rid of the bad ones; high expectations for students; focus on teaching those there to learn and kick those there to disrupt out of the classroom; discipline and respect in the classroom and politics out; and simply get back to basics with no more flavor of the month look-say reading, new math, new new math, common core math, etc pushed by educrats.

With these few simple things, 95% of the public would back higher pay for teachers, better working conditions, an pretty much want most teachers say they want.
Teachers don’t want standardized testing any more than the public.

Teachers clash with administration quite often.
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Old 05-23-2019, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,452 posts, read 10,395,261 times
Reputation: 20300
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
I would like an example of some "zero tolerance" school laws.

I would like posters to stipulate to three items:
1) that school based personnel do not, as a general rule, design any policy but are tasked to enforce those policies.
2) that policies are designed and adopted by local school boards, state Departments of Education and, in some instances, the federal Department of Education.
3) that there are close to 15000 public school systems in the US and policies will differ between each and every one.

If the above aren't accepted then this thread will devolve to the typical "bash the hogs at the trough" teacher thread.
Possessing a knife in school was a zero tolerance rule at one time in my system. In one case a parent put a small kitchen knife in a student's lunch container to cut some fruit. The student got suspended. That didn't make sense.
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Old 05-23-2019, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,452 posts, read 10,395,261 times
Reputation: 20300
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtab4994 View Post
OK so a lot of people are saying Zero Tolerance policies are not spurred by "fear of lawsuits". But there is a lot of "fear" involved.


What's the recourse when an Eagle Scout left a knife in his truck after a camping trip and he's randomly searched? If tort reform is not the right avenue to go down, then what is? Granted, allowing appeals defeats the purpose of Zero Tolerance policies, but maybe these policies need to be defeated once in a while.


Are there proposals to allow a review of individual Zero Tolerance cases?
I'll tell you where -- as a principal -- I had a problem. This is exactly about zero tolerance policies, although sometimes it was. It was really about discipline hearings (regard suspension and expulsion) at the district level. The way it was set up, the hearing officer would moderate the hearing, the principal or designee would come in and state the facts of the case, the hearing officer would question the student, but the student would be allowed to only answer the exact questions asked, and the parents would not be able to talk until the very end of the hearing. It was pretty much a scripted scenario. With rare exceptions we school folks knew what the outcome would be, and in many cases would be told before the hearing what was going to happen. I saw it as sometimes being something akin to a kangaroo court. It certainly wasn't a true hearing since the school officials only heard what they wanted to hear. And a lot of the procedure was based on the concept of zero tolerance. I'm happy to say that in more recent years the process has become much more open and parents are even encouraged to provide a review of the process once it is all over.
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Old 05-23-2019, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,452 posts, read 10,395,261 times
Reputation: 20300
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordSquidworth View Post
No.

We need to reduce administration in education.
No. Not necessarily. Makes a difference what level you're talking about. Such blanket statements are ill advised.
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Old 05-23-2019, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,452 posts, read 10,395,261 times
Reputation: 20300
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
That was my 3rd paragraph. If you boil down all the various discussions to their essence, that's about all it takes. The hard part is a willingness to be politically incorrect and do it.

a. Reward good teachers: Students, parents, and other teachers know who the good ones are.
b. Get rid of the bad ones: Again, students, parents, and other teachers know. Why is it so hard to admit there are bad teachers and get rid of them? Heck just an admission by the system that there are bad teachers would restore a lot of credibility.
c. High expectations. Not standardized tests but having the teachers hold high expectations for their students. Don't teach to the bottom of the class and don't spend the class dealing with those few disruptors. Students and teachers know who the disruptors are. Get rid of them. We waste way too much time on getting the bottom few to pass at the expense of the vast majority who are there to learn. Hold to high standards in the class room and let the chips fall where they may. The best will appreciate it and won't matter to the worst either way.
d. Basics first. No mumbo jumbo, no latest, socially and politically correct way to do whatever. 2+2=4. 4-2=2.

None of this is really hard and most is obvious. But it will gore a lot of oxen who make a living off psychobabble and flavor of the month.
a. Well, actually students and parents often don't know who the good teachers are. They know who connects with them or their children personally. That's not the same thing.

b. I agree about getting rid of the bad ones. But you're wrong about who knows. Parents and students would often evaluate out tough teachers. I had an English teacher back in the 11th grade...god I disliked her. I look back now and see that she was a step above most of the teachers in that school.

c. Education is generally seen as a right. You just don't get rid of the kids that don't fit your standards. Really good teachers can work with almost any kid. Yes, there are exceptions.

d. A nebulous statement.
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Old 05-23-2019, 11:22 AM
 
3,964 posts, read 1,693,299 times
Reputation: 8067
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
a. Well, actually students and parents often don't know who the good teachers are. They know who connects with them or their children personally. That's not the same thing.

b. I agree about getting rid of the bad ones. But you're wrong about who knows. Parents and students would often evaluate out tough teachers. I had an English teacher back in the 11th grade...god I disliked her. I look back now and see that she was a step above most of the teachers in that school.

c. Education is generally seen as a right. You just don't get rid of the kids that don't fit your standards. Really good teachers can work with almost any kid. Yes, there are exceptions.

d. A nebulous statement.
I agree on b... it is hard to tell. I had one very polarizing teacher in high school. She was very tough and made most people cry. Many people also transferred out of her class, but she was the best teacher I had. She would rip students a new one for not doing the work and used a modified Socratic method to make people talk in class. However, you knew if people could make it through her class (I had her two years), they would come out as good writers and critical thinkers.

There are some environments that are just hard as well. I had one friend who started her teaching career and was given all the bad kids from every other class. She nearly had a breakdown and immediately transferred out to another school where she excelled teaching reading to ESL and other struggling students. The main difference was that she had a principal who supported her. I believe she’s now a county reading resource teacher with three or four certifications. However, if she stayed in that first school, she would have been labeled a poor teacher and probably would have been fired by now. It can be impossible to be a “good” teacher in schools where the administration does not give you the proper support. I know other teachers who also transferred out of tough schools because the support was not there and they didn’t like the threat of being fired.
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Old 05-23-2019, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,586 posts, read 3,019,935 times
Reputation: 12813
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
No. Not necessarily. Makes a difference what level you're talking about. Such blanket statements are ill advised.
Smal-ler gov-ernment! Smal-ler gov-ernment!

(Just not any part of it that benefits me...)
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