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Old 06-01-2019, 08:37 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,225 posts, read 19,525,937 times
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I wonder how the results would turn out if the scholarships were based on math and hard science ability. You know, practical stuff.

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Old 06-01-2019, 08:38 AM
 
5,191 posts, read 4,885,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I'm not sure you should read a lot into that.

When I was teaching earth science back in the later 1970s and through the 1980s, in general, boys were better in my class...BUT the best students were almost always girls.
That is interesting. I've heard the opposite, that girls are more likely to be average, while boys are more likely to be at the very top or the very bottom. I find it interesting that your experience was different. Was your earth science class a required class or an elective?
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Old 06-01-2019, 08:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dazzleman View Post
To start with, there'd have to be an interest in helping boys. All I ever hear is how we need to do more for girls and the assumption seems to be that boys have all the advantages. It has become very mean-spirited and anti-male, with boys receiving many subliminal and even explicit messages that they are bad.

There is little concern that many boys are at risk because of the decline of family structure and father absence. We treat fathers as dispensible and fail to realize (mainly for political reasons) that boys in particular really suffer without an involved father, and our refusal to recognize that some boys need help is also rooted in a political agenda.
All very good points. I think that people need to think more about the cumulative effect of various subtle pro-female or anti-male attitudes in school. One thing that comes to mind is my 7th grade Italian teacher. She taught us that feminine definite articles are less complex than masculine definite articles, "because women are always easier to work with". Somehow, I doubt that the opposite would have been tolerated. She would also frequently remind us that the Italian language was sexist Another subtle example was my 8th grade science teacher. The day before an exam, we'd do a review game where we were divided into teams, and whoever was on the winning team would get 2 bonus points on their exam. One time, the teams were boys vs girls, and the girls won. Normally, if you were absent for the review, you were ineligible for the 2 points. But when the teams were boys vs girls, all of the girls got the 2 points, even if they were absent for the review. I wonder what he would have done if the boys had won. But I saw no reason for an exception to his usual policy.
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Old 06-01-2019, 08:47 AM
 
5,191 posts, read 4,885,222 times
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Originally Posted by greenvillebuckeye View Post
There is no favoritism going on folks. I teach high school freshman. 130 15 year old male and female students a day. 15 year old boys have become more and more bizarre with each passing year to the point where they are almost regressing in their maturity while the female students are progressing beyond where they ever where.

The vast majority of our junior marshals (juniors who help with graduation, top 15 kids in their class) are female. It's not a gender biased thing folks. Go teach high school freshman for a day, you'll see what I'm getting at.
That may be true. But what is the cause of it? What can schools do differently? It's interesting that any measure that favors boys is labeled as sexist, but if it favors girls, it's somehow the boys' fault, as you are implying here.
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Old 06-01-2019, 09:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
That may be true. But what is the cause of it? What can schools do differently? It's interesting that any measure that favors boys is labeled as sexist, but if it favors girls, it's somehow the boys' fault, as you are implying here.
I think the problem is more in the home and community environment.
A lot of people tend to look to the school to fix social problems because that's where they can legislate changes. You cannot legislate changes in the home which is where these problems originate.
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Old 06-01-2019, 09:11 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
14,724 posts, read 10,616,557 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I'm not sure you should read a lot into that.

When I was teaching earth science back in the later 1970s and through the 1980s, in general, boys were better in my class...BUT the best students were almost always girls.
I taught middle school science also during the same time period. I found the boys were generally better at grasping, synthesizing, and utilizing science, and they did indeed outperform the girls on testing that only evaluated scientific understanding and mastery. The girls, however, were the better students, especially in producing products that required extensive written effort. One of the things that never changed over the years, and regardless of the different demographics of the school, when I looked at lab reports, the girls’ were better written and were far more accurate in format and adhereing to the specific instructions. The boys were more astute in their conclusions, were more likely to make student guided discoveries, and had a deeper understanding of causation.

Since the 80’s there has been a distinct and deluberate shift in all levels of public education to the natural learning orientation of females, whereas previously public schools had been male centric. We would serve students best by separating and grouping them for core classes based on each child’s natural learning style, intrinsic learning motivators, and natural academic orientation. When that is done you will find the groupings will be gender heavy with a handful of outliners.

A good book on the subject of boys: The Boy Crisis: Why Our Boys Are Struggling and What We Can Do About It – Warren Farrell PhD
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Old 06-01-2019, 09:22 AM
 
2,149 posts, read 527,667 times
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Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Of course it is, and I didn't mean to imply anything that simplistic.

But boys and girls mature on different tracks, especially intellectually, and education being "one size fits all" long before it became "there is only one because we're so enlightened," it never really addresses these different curves. You either fit the standard curve well enough, or be wealthy/lucky enough to have a customized curve, or you finish high school with limits you shouldn't have.

A rough datum is how women tend to do poorly in STEM fields... unless they were lucky enough to be engaged at the slightly later age than boys, in which case they often excel. Women didn't enter/succeed in engineering fields because education didn't match their slightly later aptitude for such things. We haven't gotten a lot better at it, just more... aware that we have to focus on the girls and not exclude them from robotics groups and such. Half a fix at best. That boys aren't great expressive writers until somewhat past high school age is another example.
Timing is import, as you point out. But that is not the only thing going on.

Let's say mathematical ability beyond 2 standard deviations above & below the median is a recessive trait on the X chromosome. For XXs to express it, the recessive trait must be present on both Xs where as for an XY to express it, it need only appear on the single X.

What would the world look like?

Following is a hand-drawn chart of two normal distributions ("Bell Curves"). Because I drew them by hand, they are not good, but I hope illustrate the point. My intent was to draw them with the same median but with different standard deviations. So, one is "flatter" and the other is "taller." Again, drawn by hand, it is very imperfect:



The black line - with a larger standard deviation - shows mathematical ability expressed by XYs. The red line - with a smaller standard deviation - shows mathematical ability expressed by XXs.

The data in the real world tends to support this.

Converging lines of empirical evidence—from developmental neuroscience, medical genetics, evolutionary biology, cross-cultural psychology, and new studies of transsexuality—along with our evolutionary heritage, all point to the same conclusion: There are psychological differences between men and women. And they affect matters as trivial as sensitivity to smelly socks and as significant as susceptibility to disorders such as depression and autism. The dramatic physical and behavioral differences between men and women, including strength and size, pubertal timing, consistent patterns around the world of hunting versus gathering and childrearing, as well as pervasive differences in risk-taking, mortality, and reproductive requirements, attest to the likelihood that evolution sculpted adaptations into men and women that make us somewhat different creatures.

Superior spatial–temporal reasoning is one of those adaptations: As a recessive X-linked characteristic, we expect more men than women to end up math, hard science & engineering.

Now queue the response from the SJWs, none of whom took Differential Geometery or passed Calculus of Stochastic Processes or contemplated taking Theoretical Mechanics, Quantum Mechanics or Solid State Physics who will proclaim "Nonsense! It is because of sexual discrimination and harassment in higher education!" There may be something to that, but it is not the only thing happening.

We also expect more math under-achievers as well among men, and that appears to be the case.

Last edited by RationalExpectations; 06-01-2019 at 09:30 AM..
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Old 06-01-2019, 09:35 AM
 
Location: western East Roman Empire
6,602 posts, read 10,666,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
The big question is, what can schools do differently to help boys?
I don't know, and this may be off topic, but when I was a boy, nasty men, of blessed memory, disciplined me with an iron fist, and every day I love them more for it.

I do the same with my boys and guidance counselor at school, a woman who doesn't suffer fools gladly, tells me to keep doing it.

One gets straight As, reads a lot on his own, does Lego, counts money, and plays piano.

The other gets straight Bs, and is a football player.
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Old 06-01-2019, 10:03 AM
 
7,573 posts, read 2,221,717 times
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Ever try to find a science program for boys?

*crickets*

Lots of FREE opportunities for girls. From museums to zoos to aquariums even library program. Opportunities are everywhere for free supplemental educational opportunities for girls.

H-ll, a local skate shop hosted an event for girls. No boys allowed.

This was predicted decades ago. Backlash on boys.
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Old 06-01-2019, 10:21 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,543 posts, read 70,455,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenvillebuckeye View Post
There is no favoritism going on folks. I teach high school freshman. 130 15 year old male and female students a day. 15 year old boys have become more and more bizarre with each passing year to the point where they are almost regressing in their maturity while the female students are progressing beyond where they ever where.

The vast majority of our junior marshals (juniors who help with graduation, top 15 kids in their class) are female. It's not a gender biased thing folks. Go teach high school freshman for a day, you'll see what I'm getting at.
This. There are other influences at work outside the school environment, that schooling can't do much about. What is it? I think parents need to be more involved with their boys, especially dads. There need to be more bonding opportunities, which turn into role modeling. Aside from that, I don't know what the problem might be. "Peer pressure" is too vague. Where does dysfunctional peer pressure start? What's at the root of it? Indifferent or absent parenting? The internet? IDK. But we as a society need to figure it out.
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