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Old 06-05-2019, 11:09 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,999 posts, read 102,581,357 times
Reputation: 33059

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Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
Well, if it weren't illegal to group kids by ability/grade level, you could have sections of more advanced students that were learning above grade level, and not being bored out of their skulls, and sections of "behind" students who were learning below grade level, and not being bored out of their skulls because everything taught is way over their heads, and sections of "at grade level" students who were being taught at grade level, and weren't bored out of their skulls by all the constant repetition required for the "behind" students.

But that's illegal, because all students are exactly the same, and every single one can be a surgeon, or partner in a leading law firm, or start a business that makes millions, even if he reaches the age of 19 barely able to spell "cat".

So instead, we have oversized classes of kids, the smart ones bored and either checking out or causing trouble, and the dumb ones bored and either checking out or causing trouble, and the average ones trying to learn SOMETHING but having this sinking feeling that somehow they're getting shafted, without really knowing why.

Oh, and by the way, every single thing in this picture that might trouble you, is the fault of the AWFUL TEACHERS. So, the solution? PUNISH THE TEACHERS.
It is not illegal to do ability grouping. Some iterations of ability grouping have been done away with.
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Old 06-06-2019, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,473 posts, read 10,404,462 times
Reputation: 20317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Welp, the math teachers said that math is a skill that takes practice, therefore they assigned 20 (or whatever) min of homework per night. Once you learn a cartwheel in gymnastics, you do it over and over again! Same thing.
I tend to agree. Yes, some of us needed more repetition than others in math, but I couldn't expect my elementary teacher to decide how many problems thirty different kids needed to do. The practice didn't hurt a bit.
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Old 06-06-2019, 10:15 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,648 posts, read 70,531,500 times
Reputation: 76623
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Consider your kids very lucky they graduated when they did. Worksheets were the bane of our existence as the kids had to grind through pages of them every night. Math, spelling, word match, fill in the blanks, true/false. Every subject. 20-50 problems/questions/etc on each sheet..
This sounds like early training for taking standardized tests, frankly.
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Old 06-07-2019, 04:31 AM
 
5,169 posts, read 2,326,452 times
Reputation: 14790
Quick, what's 7 x 8?


If you can answer "56" instantly without having to pull out a calculator or I phone, you can thank the math teacher that made you drill.


No one particularly likes drill but it's necessary for learning certain basic skills. No one particularly loves brushing their teeth, either.


I'm sorry, but learning and education isn't all fun; sometimes it has to be boring and repetitive to do the job.


Only amateurs talking about education insist that drill and repetition shouldn't be part of education. They'd never claim that the members of their favorite sporting team or their favorite band shouldn't practice shooting and dribbling fundamentals or scales. But people who felt that necessary drill and practice were "irrelevant busy work" when they experienced them, are now adults and parents who feel that their experience of boredom should dictate how subjects are taught.


And thus, yet another factor in the ongoing decline of American educational standards. I can guarantee that those "Russian math" or "Korean math" places that are set up to teach kids the basic math skills the public schools don't, incorporate plenty of drill into their methods.
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Old 06-07-2019, 07:46 AM
 
8,313 posts, read 9,074,437 times
Reputation: 6683
Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
Quick, what's 7 x 8?


If you can answer "56" instantly without having to pull out a calculator or I phone, you can thank the math teacher that made you drill.


No one particularly likes drill but it's necessary for learning certain basic skills. No one particularly loves brushing their teeth, either.


I'm sorry, but learning and education isn't all fun; sometimes it has to be boring and repetitive to do the job.


Only amateurs talking about education insist that drill and repetition shouldn't be part of education. They'd never claim that the members of their favorite sporting team or their favorite band shouldn't practice shooting and dribbling fundamentals or scales. But people who felt that necessary drill and practice were "irrelevant busy work" when they experienced them, are now adults and parents who feel that their experience of boredom should dictate how subjects are taught.


And thus, yet another factor in the ongoing decline of American educational standards. I can guarantee that those "Russian math" or "Korean math" places that are set up to teach kids the basic math skills the public schools don't, incorporate plenty of drill into their methods.
We are blurring the lines too much as it were. Early +, -, x, / centered repetition isn't the needless robo-work people on my side of this argument are against - at least not me. Memorizing math factors to about 12 or 15 at minimum and 20 more likely is roughly as important as memorizing the alphabet. Kids who don't and adults who didn't are at lifetime disadvantages, whether they know it or not.

To my way of thinking an example of math related fluffy work is forcing kids who clearly know that they are doing, especially gifted kids, to show every step of say a simple remainder yielding division problem over and over and over and over. I understand forcing students to prove up their skills but endless repeats of the same hyper-simple processes turn smart kids off too often. As an aside this dovetails in as just one more reason we should group kids by more by ability and and less age.
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Old 06-07-2019, 07:49 AM
 
8,313 posts, read 9,074,437 times
Reputation: 6683
Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
Quick, what's 7 x 8?


If you can answer "56" instantly without having to pull out a calculator or I phone, you can thank the math teacher that made you drill.


No one particularly likes drill but it's necessary for learning certain basic skills. No one particularly loves brushing their teeth, either.


I'm sorry, but learning and education isn't all fun; sometimes it has to be boring and repetitive to do the job.


Only amateurs talking about education insist that drill and repetition shouldn't be part of education. They'd never claim that the members of their favorite sporting team or their favorite band shouldn't practice shooting and dribbling fundamentals or scales. But people who felt that necessary drill and practice were "irrelevant busy work" when they experienced them, are now adults and parents who feel that their experience of boredom should dictate how subjects are taught.


And thus, yet another factor in the ongoing decline of American educational standards. I can guarantee that those "Russian math" or "Korean math" places that are set up to teach kids the basic math skills the public schools don't, incorporate plenty of drill into their methods.
We are blurring the lines too much as it were. Early +, -, x, / centered repetition isn't the needless robo-work people on my side of this argument are against - at least not me. Memorizing math factors to about 12 or 15 at minimum and 20 more likely is roughly as important as memorizing the alphabet. Kids who don't and adults who didn't are at lifetime disadvantages, whether they know it or not.

To my way of thinking an example of math related fluffy work is forcing kids who clearly know that they are doing, especially gifted kids, to show every step of say a simple remainder yielding division problem over and over and over and over. I understand forcing students to prove up their skills but endless repeats of the same hyper-simply porsess turn smart kids off too often. As an aside this dovetails in as just one more reason we should group kids by more by ability and and less age.

The value of memorizing tables is worth far more than the monotony.
The value of showing every move/adjustment as line item usually isn't.
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Old 06-07-2019, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,473 posts, read 10,404,462 times
Reputation: 20317
Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
Quick, what's 7 x 8?


If you can answer "56" instantly without having to pull out a calculator or I phone, you can thank the math teacher that made you drill.


No one particularly likes drill but it's necessary for learning certain basic skills. No one particularly loves brushing their teeth, either.


I'm sorry, but learning and education isn't all fun; sometimes it has to be boring and repetitive to do the job.


Only amateurs talking about education insist that drill and repetition shouldn't be part of education. They'd never claim that the members of their favorite sporting team or their favorite band shouldn't practice shooting and dribbling fundamentals or scales. But people who felt that necessary drill and practice were "irrelevant busy work" when they experienced them, are now adults and parents who feel that their experience of boredom should dictate how subjects are taught.


And thus, yet another factor in the ongoing decline of American educational standards. I can guarantee that those "Russian math" or "Korean math" places that are set up to teach kids the basic math skills the public schools don't, incorporate plenty of drill into their methods.
Excellent post.
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Old 06-07-2019, 09:53 AM
 
6,842 posts, read 3,716,925 times
Reputation: 18083
Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
Quick, what's 7 x 8?


If you can answer "56" instantly without having to pull out a calculator or I phone, you can thank the math teacher that made you drill.


No one particularly likes drill but it's necessary for learning certain basic skills. No one particularly loves brushing their teeth, either.


I'm sorry, but learning and education isn't all fun; sometimes it has to be boring and repetitive to do the job.


Only amateurs talking about education insist that drill and repetition shouldn't be part of education. They'd never claim that the members of their favorite sporting team or their favorite band shouldn't practice shooting and dribbling fundamentals or scales. But people who felt that necessary drill and practice were "irrelevant busy work" when they experienced them, are now adults and parents who feel that their experience of boredom should dictate how subjects are taught.


And thus, yet another factor in the ongoing decline of American educational standards. I can guarantee that those "Russian math" or "Korean math" places that are set up to teach kids the basic math skills the public schools don't, incorporate plenty of drill into their methods.
Strawman. No one is saying that drill and repetition isn't part of learning. What we said was assigning work beyond that necessary for learning just to fill time or fill worksheets is busywork. What's bizarre to me are the people who never experienced it.
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Old 06-07-2019, 10:17 AM
 
975 posts, read 524,174 times
Reputation: 2138
Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
Well, if it weren't illegal to group kids by ability/grade level, you could have sections of more advanced students that were learning above grade level, and not being bored out of their skulls, and sections of "behind" students who were learning below grade level, and not being bored out of their skulls because everything taught is way over their heads, and sections of "at grade level" students who were being taught at grade level, and weren't bored out of their skulls by all the constant repetition required for the "behind" students.

But that's illegal, because all students are exactly the same, and every single one can be a surgeon, or partner in a leading law firm, or start a business that makes millions, even if he reaches the age of 19 barely able to spell "cat".

So instead, we have oversized classes of kids, the smart ones bored and either checking out or causing trouble, and the dumb ones bored and either checking out or causing trouble, and the average ones trying to learn SOMETHING but having this sinking feeling that somehow they're getting shafted, without really knowing why.

Oh, and by the way, every single thing in this picture that might trouble you, is the fault of the AWFUL TEACHERS. So, the solution? PUNISH THE TEACHERS.
This is a fundimental misunderstanding of education law.
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Old 06-07-2019, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Northern Appalachia
5,167 posts, read 6,355,195 times
Reputation: 6042
Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
Quick, what's 7 x 8?

If you can answer "56" instantly without having to pull out a calculator or I phone, you can thank the math teacher that made you drill.

No one particularly likes drill but it's necessary for learning certain basic skills. No one particularly loves brushing their teeth, either.

I'm sorry, but learning and education isn't all fun; sometimes it has to be boring and repetitive to do the job.

Only amateurs talking about education insist that drill and repetition shouldn't be part of education. They'd never claim that the members of their favorite sporting team or their favorite band shouldn't practice shooting and dribbling fundamentals or scales. But people who felt that necessary drill and practice were "irrelevant busy work" when they experienced them, are now adults and parents who feel that their experience of boredom should dictate how subjects are taught.

And thus, yet another factor in the ongoing decline of American educational standards. I can guarantee that those "Russian math" or "Korean math" places that are set up to teach kids the basic math skills the public schools don't, incorporate plenty of drill into their methods.

I agree! Your comment reminds me of Mrs. Hoover, my 3rd grade teacher. You didn't pass 3rd grade without knowing your multiplication tables inside and out. Sometimes it took people two years but everyone eventually passed 3rd grade and were experts in multiplication.
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