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Old 06-23-2019, 09:03 AM
 
684 posts, read 248,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Been to school lately?

About everyone who 'shows-up' gets an A (Including college).

Pretty sad (for hiring managers who who like to get someone who is 'educated'. (showed initiative)

Once you hire them. Oops... too late.
The same as at the workplace: people get recognized and rewards because they join the club and go with the flow and smile a lot, not because they focus on the work and work hard. At the workplace place now, socializing is more important than doing the real work.
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Old 06-23-2019, 02:19 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
22,527 posts, read 39,903,732 times
Reputation: 23634
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnOrdinaryCitizen View Post
The same as at the workplace: people get recognized and rewards because they join the club and go with the flow and smile a lot, not because they focus on the work and work hard. At the workplace place now, socializing is more important than doing the real work.
Yes, so trite.... Facebook style mangers.... And co-workers... 'like me' vs appreciate your hard work.
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Old 06-23-2019, 07:07 PM
 
1,899 posts, read 2,947,808 times
Reputation: 1617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarallel View Post
Interesting piece. But, still, the first thing I thought of was the common concept of grading on the curve.



Why Canít Everyone Get Aís?
Excellence is not a zero sum game

By Alfie Kohn

Suppose that next year virtually every student passed the tests. What would the reaction be from politicians, businesspeople, the media? Would these people shake their heads in admiration and say, ďDamn, those teachers must be good!Ē?

Of course not. Such remarkable success would be cited as evidence that the tests were too easy


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/15/o...sultPosition=1

https://trendingpress.com/why-cant-everyone-get-as/

Opinion | Why Can

As someone who has taught courses that are state tested such as US History I can tell you that statement is beyond accurate. If a class / school / district / state as a whole does well its never due to the kids or the teachers. Its ALWAYS the test is too easy. Then when they don't do well it's reversed and the teachers are idiots. State mandated testing has put teachers in a no win situation nationally. Do well? too easy. Did poorly. You're horrible at your profession.

Having not read the article but based solely on the headline I argue that everyone CAN get A's but in reality not every kid is going to. Be it on an exam or for the entire course its possible but not likely. Several years ago I awarded A's to all of my kids in one of my Honors US History courses to whoever could get an A on the end of year state US History test. Each one scored a grade of "C" or higher on the exam but several scored over a 90 or higher. My offer ultimately pushed a few kids from what have been B's to A's for the course. Did they earn the A? Mathematically yes and no. The score ultimately came out to a 90 or higher for the year BUT to achieve that did I have to pluck a few points out of thin air? Yea. The ultimate question is never asked however. Did they learn any US History? According to their results on the state test you betcha!!!! If a kid has an 83 in your class and they score a 99 on a state test involving that subject matter are they not deserving of a grade that corresponds to what they have learned? Just my professional opinion but they are. Similar situation, this was roughly 7 years ago? I had a kid who barely came to class half the time (barely came to school half the time to boot). Basically had the grades to correspond with his attendance record so he was destined to have to repeat history ;-). He ended up scoring a 70 on the state US History test and our asst. principal and I agreed he apparently knew enough history to receive credit. So he did.

IMPO why does it matter if a kid didn't turn in one worksheet? If he or she knows the material, power to em. We spend waaaaayyyy too much time in this country discussing grades and not enough time discussing knowledge of material.
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Old 06-24-2019, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,437 posts, read 10,385,168 times
Reputation: 20299
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Been to school lately?

About everyone who 'shows-up' gets an A (Including college).

Pretty sad (for hiring managers who who like to get someone who is 'educated'. (showed initiative)

Once you hire them. Oops... too late.
I'd like you to cite some evidence for that.
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Old 06-25-2019, 12:31 AM
 
8,532 posts, read 7,680,482 times
Reputation: 8110
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenvillebuckeye View Post
If a kid has an 83 in your class and they score a 99 on a state test involving that subject matter are they not deserving of a grade that corresponds to what they have learned?
Also anecdotal:

My son just finished his sophomore year of college. He took Genetics I first semester and Genetics II second semester.

His second semester professor rarely lectured from/used the material in the very expensive book I bought for the class.

My son went in to the final, as did his classmates, knowing that the final would be a "standardized test".

So he and his friends who went in to the final with a solid A, ended up with every range of a C (or worse) on the final. Which was heavily curved - the highest final curved grade was a 90 (one student). Of course I asked my son how he managed to do so poorly, and he gave me "that look". It's his issue to deal with, not mine.

However, that doesn't stop me from wondering. To me, it sounds like the professor isn't doing her students any favors throughout the semester, not if her solid A students end up with a C on a "standardized" test/final. Then there is the question as to why she so heavily weights the final exam so that a C will lower a solid A, as a final semester grade, to a B.

Is this a way for her to NOT have to deal with why she teaches what/how she feels like? Why she doesn't use the textbook? Is she making it too easy during the semester for her students (and herself)? So she makes up for it with the final exam to prove she's not "too easy"?

And a good amount of these kids are taking the MCAT this summer. Including mine.

Quote:
IMPO why does it matter if a kid didn't turn in one worksheet? If he or she knows the material, power to em. We spend waaaaayyyy too much time in this country discussing grades and not enough time discussing knowledge of material.
This is probably why my 19-23 year old college tenants don't understand the concept of being responsible. It's been waived for them. So what if they don't get me their rent, due on the 1st of the month (with a grace period until the 3rd) until the 5th or 7th or 10th? No skin off their backs until I hit them with the "late rent fee".
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Old 06-25-2019, 02:16 AM
 
1,350 posts, read 586,784 times
Reputation: 1244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Informed Info View Post
Also anecdotal:

My son just finished his sophomore year of college. He took Genetics I first semester and Genetics II second semester.

His second semester professor rarely lectured from/used the material in the very expensive book I bought for the class.

My son went in to the final, as did his classmates, knowing that the final would be a "standardized test".

So he and his friends who went in to the final with a solid A, ended up with every range of a C (or worse) on the final. Which was heavily curved - the highest final curved grade was a 90 (one student). Of course I asked my son how he managed to do so poorly, and he gave me "that look". It's his issue to deal with, not mine.

However, that doesn't stop me from wondering. To me, it sounds like the professor isn't doing her students any favors throughout the semester, not if her solid A students end up with a C on a "standardized" test/final. Then there is the question as to why she so heavily weights the final exam so that a C will lower a solid A, as a final semester grade, to a B.

Is this a way for her to NOT have to deal with why she teaches what/how she feels like? Why she doesn't use the textbook? Is she making it too easy during the semester for her students (and herself)? So she makes up for it with the final exam to prove she's not "too easy"?

And a good amount of these kids are taking the MCAT this summer. Including mine.



This is probably why my 19-23 year old college tenants don't understand the concept of being responsible. It's been waived for them. So what if they don't get me their rent, due on the 1st of the month (with a grace period until the 3rd) until the 5th or 7th or 10th? No skin off their backs until I hit them with the "late rent fee".
Which school does your son attend? This seems unusual
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Old 06-25-2019, 10:54 AM
 
481 posts, read 202,335 times
Reputation: 792
The way to deal with grade inflation is to normalize the grades. If everybody in a class gets A's, then those are recorded as C's, because an A is average for that class and C is the grade for "average".
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Old 06-25-2019, 03:39 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
22,527 posts, read 39,903,732 times
Reputation: 23634
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I'd like you to cite some evidence for that.
  1. I teach higher edu (PT) STEM
  2. I hired (5) entry level engineers last yr (pathetic education and experience)
  3. My companies and friends with companies (employ 300+ STEM) experience severe 'training burden'
  4. I completed (another) masters program in last 5 yrs, students (and staff) were pretty lame.

If you are running a payroll and covering benefits you will fully understand what is lacking in current EDU 'output'.

"Train-me"...
"Entitled" ...
"Committed / responsible"...
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Old 06-25-2019, 04:45 PM
 
6,838 posts, read 3,708,603 times
Reputation: 18073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Ferris View Post
The way to deal with grade inflation is to normalize the grades. If everybody in a class gets A's, then those are recorded as C's, because an A is average for that class and C is the grade for "average".
Normalizing is a false solution because most classrooms are not normal. You can't assume the students in a particular class are average just because that's how third grade averages are done. Normalizing only means something if the group is truly random. The only proper way to deal with grade inflation is to have a common set of standards that define a grade range for that set of courseware. You can't, for example, base A's in quantum mechanics off the same standard as an A in English.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
  1. I teach higher edu (PT) STEM
  2. I hired (5) entry level engineers last yr (pathetic education and experience)
  3. My companies and friends with companies (employ 300+ STEM) experience severe 'training burden'
  4. I completed (another) masters program in last 5 yrs, students (and staff) were pretty lame.

If you are running a payroll and covering benefits you will fully understand what is lacking in current EDU 'output'.

"Train-me"...
"Entitled" ...
"Committed / responsible"...
You're hiring from the wrong colleges. I agree that what I'm seeing out of many colleges doesn't match up, but what I see from the better colleges certainly does.
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:46 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
22,527 posts, read 39,903,732 times
Reputation: 23634
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
...
You're hiring from the wrong colleges. I agree that what I'm seeing out of many colleges doesn't match up, but what I see from the better colleges certainly does.
Yup, definitely get better qualified candidates and prefer to hire for foreign U's (For engineering)

This employer wanted USA grads and only (3) colleges in USA have top programs in this discipline, so we grabbed what was available (pathetic, but were the cream of the crop). They will survive and are eventually coming up to speed (at great expense / loss to employer).

NONE had any true experience in the field, Europe and Asia grads get linked to a relevant company for Jr and Senior yrs and arrive fully functional day one. (Software, technology, planning, tangible results).
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