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Old 12-17-2020, 08:51 AM
 
9,050 posts, read 5,006,045 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Wow interesting.
In China we do the opposite. My parents had to alter my "paper", together with a few other parents, to let me enroll in school before 6 1/2 years old. In my school 6 1/2 was the cutoff age.
Another girl is even younger than me, and her parents sent her to another province to attend school for one year, and then transferred her back.

Parents in China try all things to let their kids attend school earlier.
I had a friend in Japan who had to alter her birthday. I think that she was held back so she could be the oldest. She was on the cutoff day to go to the higher grade, but I don’t think her parents thought she was prepared enough. I think she actually did quite well in school and got into a competitive college in a STEM field, but did not end up going to public university because she did not want to major in STEM.
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Old 12-17-2020, 09:33 AM
 
4,861 posts, read 2,288,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Wow interesting.

Parents in China try all things to let their kids attend school earlier.
USA's kindergarten in the 1960's was a year of learning social skills and art projects at age 5. It was the equivalent of preschool.

USA's kindergarten today is the 1960's first grade where reading and math is taught at age 5.

Schools are cultural institutions.

Sweden's kindergarten starts at age 6 and math/reading lessons don't start until first grade at age 7.

The UK system starts at age 4 or 5. The UK is very big on standardized testing.

The coolest system is in Germany with its forest kindergarten. Kids are outside playing even in cold, snowy weather and make fires. https://smartergerman.com/blog/waldk...-kindergarten/

Italians have Maria's Montessori education system. It's probably more similar to Sweden's program. They still wear a blue flock over their clothes as a uniform.

It's not a contest between school styles. It's more of a reflection on culture.
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Old 12-17-2020, 09:38 AM
 
13,263 posts, read 6,677,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturenurture View Post
To me, how you accomplish something is even more important than the accomplishment itself. Success really isn't anything to be proud of if you had to cheat to do it.

One example that pertains to our family right now is Redshirting. This is when the parents of a child born between October and December wait until their child is almost 6 to send them to Kindergarten, so that they will be older than their classmates and have an unfair advantage over them.

This is clearly cheating, as it's almost inevitable a child is going to come out on top when being compared to children a year younger than them. However, this is exactly what my husband wants to do. In 2021, our son will turn 5 in the first week of October, which means that he should be starting Kindergarten next Fall. However, he is insisting that we wait until the Fall of 2022, as this means he will consistently perform better than all of his classmates instead of performing worse than 3 quarters of his classmates, as would probably be the case if we sent him on time.

I'm not trying to deny that he'll do much better in school if we wait a year. Indeed, there are countless studies out there that prove that kids who are older almost always do better.

I have no doubt that if we redshirt our son, he'll get straight A's and be in gifted programs all through school, win every class competition, be valedictorian, go off to one of HYP, and have a 6-figure-salary by his mid-twenties.

However, the reason I don't want to redshirt is simply because it's morally wrong. It would give him an unfair advantage over the rest of his classmates. I couldn't genuinely feel proud of my son for outperforming kids a year younger than him. I would feel much happier if he did okay playing by the rules than excel by cheating.

I've tried telling my husband this, but he doesn't seem to think there's anything unethical about this. He's also the breadwinner of the family, so what he says pretty much goes. How do I make him see that you sometimes have to give up what you desire in order to do what's right? Thank you in advance!
I don't find it morally wrong at all. Lots of times, the 'younger' 6 yr olds struggle and are behind. And then they're on track all through grade school to always be behind.


To me, it's no more morally wrong then fixing a cleft lip on a baby, or finding out your child has ADHD, but expecting the child to perform like everyone else at school, without any kind of intervention.


Indeed, I knew a family that had a child that was every so clearly afflicted with ADD. I knew that family since their son was 10. The parents NEVER had him evaluated, and preferred to pray about it, than actually seek any kind of treatment. It always struck me as (1.) so so unfair to that child, and (2.) sticking their heads in the sand regarding their boy.


That kid struggled in school his entire life. Finally after flunking his junior year of high school TWICE, he dropped out.


When he turned 18, he sought treatment for himself, and started on medication for ADD. He told me one time, after he'd started the medication, he sat down to watch TV one afternoon, and for the first time ever, didn't flip the channel every couple of minutes. He actually watched a show all the way through. He'd never done that before.

Last edited by toobusytoday; 12-18-2020 at 03:08 PM..
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Old 12-17-2020, 09:51 AM
 
13,139 posts, read 31,621,657 times
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We've talked about red-shirting so often in this forum that I made a thread combining several threads. You can read them all here: https://www.city-data.com/forum/educ...d-threads.html
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Old 12-17-2020, 10:07 AM
 
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I'm guessing this might be a one-post wonder, especially since a link was part of the original post, but I'll ask anyway. Which state has a cutoff age in October? September 1st is the normal cutoff date. Are you outside of the U.S.?

Almost all kids start Kinder when they have already turned 5 and they will turn 6 sometime during the school year. By April or March, most kids in Kinder will be 6 years old, although there are usually a few holdouts. Starting a kid at 4 years old in Kinder is extremely young. That means they would start their senior year of high school at 16, graduate at 17, and even start college before they turned 18.

I agree with the husband about holding off a year. I'm not sure where morality comes into it or how Trump found his way into Kindergarten.

As far as development, the variation found within a group of kids is so extreme that being 1 year older or younger than most classmates will have no effect. Height is one example, I've seen 4th grade girls standing at 5'2" and I've also seen 8th grade boys standing about the same height. I've seen 4th graders reading at a 12th grade level and 8th graders reading at a 4th grade level.

When you get to high school athletics, you can have students aged 14-19 years old all competing together. That's a 5 year difference, so no, one year will not turn a dud into a stud.
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Old 12-17-2020, 10:11 AM
 
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You don't make a "moral" statement with your child. You put your child's welfare first. With that in mind, is your child short for his age? Lean towards holding him. Is he very tall for his age? Lean towards sending him. Is he socially immature? Hold. Socially adept? Send. On the verge of reading, or reading already? Send. Doesn't even know his letters and numbers? Hold.

It's about what's best for your son, not about making a "moral" statement with him.
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Old 12-17-2020, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Raleigh
13,036 posts, read 10,340,334 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parentologist View Post
You don't make a "moral" statement with your child. You put your child's welfare first. With that in mind, is your child short for his age? Lean towards holding him. Is he very tall for his age? Lean towards sending him. Is he socially immature? Hold. Socially adept? Send. On the verge of reading, or reading already? Send. Doesn't even know his letters and numbers? Hold.

It's about what's best for your son, not about making a "moral" statement with him.
More than that, your child's welfare doesn't come at the expense of other children, so there's no moral statement to make in the first place.

It isn't as if the teacher has so many A's to distribute. In fact, higher performing students on the whole probably require fewer resources than lower performing peers.
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Old 12-17-2020, 10:59 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
I have no doubt that if we redshirt our son, he'll get straight A's and be in gifted programs all through school, win every class competition, be valedictorian, go off to one of HYP, and have a 6-figure-salary by his mid-twenties.

However, the reason I don't want to redshirt is simply because it's morally wrong. It would give him an unfair advantage over the rest of his classmates.
OP, why wouldn't your son get A's and be in gifted programs and win some class competitions anyway, without redshirting? If you think about it, isn't that kind of an odd assumption? A bright kid is a bright kid at any age, among any age group. Probably under your guidance, he'd establish good study habits, and would be a high achiever, no matter where he was placed, wouldn't he?

If you have such high expectations for your child if red-shirted, why would you abandon those high expectations otherwise? Wouldn't you be doing your child a great disservice, in assuming he'd only be keeping up with the herd if he entered school a little early, vs. a little late?

But having said that, I'd like to suggest you not pressure him too much in any case. He doesn't have to win EVERY class competition. Would he have to get A's in every single class? Leave him time and energy to be a kid, in-between buckling down to get good grades.

Side note; I was in grade school with a girl whose parents were Japanese immigrants. They put so much pressure on that poor child, that she felt compelled to cheat on math tests. The rest of the class could see her doing it. Eventually, a group of kids reported her to the teacher. The poor child burst into tears. Don't be those parents. Give your son some leeway to enjoy his childhood, and to learn at his own pace. If you work with him in a loving way, he should pick up good study habits, and should do fine without undue pressure. Winning a lot of awards isn't everything. There's something to be said for leading a balanced, happy life, which includes doing well, but without requiring winning everything.
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Old 12-17-2020, 11:21 AM
 
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If the intent is to help the child excel in the learning environment there's nothing morally wrong with it. I would only be concerned if you try pushing the child into a specific 'arena' i.e. sports or some other with undo pressure. If you want the child to excel you may want to do what tech execs do*



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qww1NNf2aeY

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/i...=pocket-newtab


So much of it depends on the individual child's growth and mental cognitive maturation. Someone may ave already mentioned this, certain countries start at later ages because research showed it actually had better results.
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Old 12-17-2020, 11:23 AM
 
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You and your husband are making a lot of assumptions. If your child is going to get straight A's his age doesn't matter. Statistics about outcomes can only apply to the group. They cannot predict how any individual will do.

I started first grade having just turned 6 and got straight A's. Back then smart kids got skipped and so I skipped second grade and went into third grade, and got straight A's again. I had no trouble fitting in. I graduated from high school at 16. I got a college education in liberal arts and 14 years later I got an MBA paid for by my company while I was working. I never made a 6 figure salary until the last two years before I retired at 62, or wanted to climb to the top, but I made a good living, got married, had kids, and enjoyed what I did and now have a comfortable retirement. I'd like to think I chose what was important to me and rejected what wasn't.

As far as cheating, I don't believe being older makes you smarter or more successful in school. Lots of older students in class were dummies. The smartest kid in my high school graduated at 15. What counts is how much you apply yourself, how willing you are to do the work.

As far as success, my experience is that most people who make it to the top are unethical in one way or the other. If not participating in unethical actions, then at least going along with them. You don't become a made man in the mafia unless you make your bones. My experience was that large corporations worked pretty much the the same way.

I think it's unethical to intentionally harm someone. Getting better marks than them doesn't harm them. Their marks are up to themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by naturenurture View Post
To me, how you accomplish something is even more important than the accomplishment itself. Success really isn't anything to be proud of if you had to cheat to do it.

One example that pertains to our family right now is Redshirting. This is when the parents of a child born between October and December wait until their child is almost 6 to send them to Kindergarten, so that they will be older than their classmates and have an unfair advantage over them.

This is clearly cheating, as it's almost inevitable a child is going to come out on top when being compared to children a year younger than them. However, this is exactly what my husband wants to do. In 2021, our son will turn 5 in the first week of October, which means that he should be starting Kindergarten next Fall. However, he is insisting that we wait until the Fall of 2022, as this means he will consistently perform better than all of his classmates instead of performing worse than 3 quarters of his classmates, as would probably be the case if we sent him on time.

I'm not trying to deny that he'll do much better in school if we wait a year. Indeed, there are countless studies out there that prove that kids who are older almost always do better.

I have no doubt that if we redshirt our son, he'll get straight A's and be in gifted programs all through school, win every class competition, be valedictorian, go off to one of HYP, and have a 6-figure-salary by his mid-twenties.

However, the reason I don't want to redshirt is simply because it's morally wrong. It would give him an unfair advantage over the rest of his classmates. I couldn't genuinely feel proud of my son for outperforming kids a year younger than him. I would feel much happier if he did okay playing by the rules than excel by cheating.

I've tried telling my husband this, but he doesn't seem to think there's anything unethical about this. He's also the breadwinner of the family, so what he says pretty much goes. How do I make him see that you sometimes have to give up what you desire in order to do what's right? Thank you in advance!

Last edited by toobusytoday; 12-17-2020 at 04:35 PM..
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