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Old 05-30-2021, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Concord, CA
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This is an interesting presentation wrt the German system of education both pro and con.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK6kUt0bIQk
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Old 05-31-2021, 03:03 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
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Germany starts tracking in elementary. In America we'd have a revolution against that. American parents would NOT give that kind of power over their kids to elementary teachers and principals.

For all the criticism of the American education system, it is actually one of the most progressive and egalitarian systems on earth. America is more conservative that Europe on health care but NOT education.

Technically the Germans have a point, since college success can be pretty accurately predicted by about ages 12-13. Elite colleges will even start recruiting in middle school. However, again, Americans would never tolerate some education bureaucrat telling their 12 year old, "you will never go to college." No way no how.
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Old 05-31-2021, 05:58 AM
 
Location: Concord, CA
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The German system does track and test. As a result, fewer are admitted to college. However, college is tuition free.

The main point, however is that they have a robust system to train and certify for many other careers. They don't just focus on the few who will succeed in college and discard the rest.

I agree that having a parallel system in the USA would be politically impossible. As such, we allow our students to drown in debt.
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Old 05-31-2021, 07:01 AM
 
19,989 posts, read 5,915,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vision67 View Post
The German system does track and test. As a result, fewer are admitted to college. However, college is tuition free.

The main point, however is that they have a robust system to train and certify for many other careers. They don't just focus on the few who will succeed in college and discard the rest.

I agree that having a parallel system in the USA would be politically impossible. As such, we allow our students to drown in debt.
How much do you really know about the German system, it's loopholes and pressure points?
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Old 08-13-2022, 05:57 AM
 
Location: Tricity
52,339 posts, read 74,039,654 times
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Originally Posted by Threestep2 View Post
How much do you really know about the German system, it's loopholes and pressure points?
Would you like to tell us about?
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Old 08-13-2022, 06:18 AM
 
10,476 posts, read 6,663,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Germany starts tracking in elementary. In America we'd have a revolution against that. American parents would NOT give that kind of power over their kids to elementary teachers and principals.

For all the criticism of the American education system, it is actually one of the most progressive and egalitarian systems on earth. America is more conservative that Europe on health care but NOT education.

Technically the Germans have a point, since college success can be pretty accurately predicted by about ages 12-13. Elite colleges will even start recruiting in middle school. However, again, Americans would never tolerate some education bureaucrat telling their 12 year old, "you will never go to college." No way no how.
Let's be honest; it's not American parents who resist tracking. It is the elite of the educational establishment and social do-gooders who most push against tracking and Vo-Tech education in high school. Their the ones pushing the "everyone must go to college" and "eliminate Vo-Tech" in high schools. Because, somehow, Vo-Tech is discrimination.

That's been pushed so long you now have generations of parents who don't know any different and who really believe it. Except we're now seeing some cracks around the edges and not everyone is buying the "everyone must go to college" mantra. And we're seeing a resurgence of those heading toward vocational education after high school.

Funny how we claim to want to give every child an appropriate education. Tracking would help provide that. Instead, we have a one size fits none approach. I think a lot of parents could get behind tracking if it lead to fewer college bills for everyone.
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Old 08-13-2022, 08:15 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
96,531 posts, read 94,397,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Germany starts tracking in elementary. In America we'd have a revolution against that. American parents would NOT give that kind of power over their kids to elementary teachers and principals.

For all the criticism of the American education system, it is actually one of the most progressive and egalitarian systems on earth. America is more conservative that Europe on health care but NOT education.

Technically the Germans have a point, since college success can be pretty accurately predicted by about ages 12-13. Elite colleges will even start recruiting in middle school. However, again, Americans would never tolerate some education bureaucrat telling their 12 year old, "you will never go to college." No way no how.
This is interesting, because Germans on this forum have insisted, that this no longer takes place in Germany. They say that system was from the old days, and there's much more individual choice these days. People do not get doomed by age 12-13 to a working-class apprenticeship or school track; no one gets shut out of university education, they say. Others say, there are ways to get around being set in a certain track. I asked about it a few years ago on the Europe forum.

The reason why tracking was easy to do in Europe, but wasn't popular in the US, is that the populations of some European countries were pretty homogeneous before more recent waves of refugee immigration. In the US, tracking tended to play out on a racial basis. Even bright kids who weren't White were deemed to not be college-bound, and got stuck in lower tracks.
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Old 08-14-2022, 04:25 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
30,435 posts, read 50,679,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
.... In the US, tracking tended to play out on a racial basis. Even bright kids who weren't White were deemed to not be college-bound, and got stuck in lower tracks.
The USA has educational "tracking?"
Maybe by outcomes, but certainly not by public school / gov mandate (as do many countries)

+/-... I've see 5th grade Kids in Singapore , hospitalized with ulcers (over "tracking / academic testing), Germany, not nearly the individual pressure or stigma or 'life sentence' to be tracked to vocational. All can be successful and productive, and all contribute to society. I asked a few of the thousands of German young gals I see traveling (often in NZ and AU)... "Where are the young German men?". "They're at home working, or schooling for a career, or in the military.". German's seem to have a better balance in quality of life, so I would expect that flows over into schools and learning's. More of a culture than academic difference. Free college (for those who are indeed qualified).

USA catering to the special privileged by perceived neglect....is like everything else the US government manipulates, it is soon very expensive and ruined for all. My education was not ruined by government involvement, but my kid's USA educational opportunities were very limited because of 'equal (?) access'. My career was nearly curtailed by eoe restrictions in 1973. 390 applicants for 5 apprentice positions (4 positions were reserved for minorities). (1) person successfully completed the 5yr rigorous program, it was not a minority. Tons of mentoring and tutoring, special privileges, exceptions to meet requirements, exceptions to attendence and no required mandatory overtime, and certainly no physical or verbal abuse to the minorities still did not pull them through. That was the end of our company's ability to offer apprenticeships.
All the technical skills had to be outsourced to countries who mainly used foreign country based German skills, and vocational trainers.

There is a noticable difference of intentional academic and vocational education in countries that strategically prepare their workforce and technologies, but that plays against everything American. (Freedom of personal and business choice). +/-
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Old 08-14-2022, 06:24 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
96,531 posts, read 94,397,660 times
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The US had tracking in public schools. Not sure if it still does, or maybe in some states still. But it wasn't like the Euro model, exactly. There was also a different kind of tracking, where kids could choose an easier trig course over a more difficult one, for example. Within a college prep program, there was choice, for kids who weren't strong in math, for example. They could opt for a lower-pressure course. It had no bearing on their college admissability or future career options, or anything.
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Old 08-14-2022, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Tucson
592 posts, read 428,857 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
The US had tracking in public schools. Not sure if it still does, or maybe in some states still. But it wasn't like the Euro model, exactly. There was also a different kind of tracking, where kids could choose an easier trig course over a more difficult one, for example. Within a college prep program, there was choice, for kids who weren't strong in math, for example. They could opt for a lower-pressure course. It had no bearing on their college admissability or future career options, or anything.

I remember something like that from high school in the 1980's, and it was probably this way in the 70's, too. It was more like having tracks for the students than tracking them: academic (for the kids intending to go to colllege), business (for those going to business school), and vo-tech (for those going into a trade). There were certain courses for each of these (such as business typing v. personal typing, or business-oriented mathematics courses v. pre-calc), with some overlap. Everyone took the same French classes, for example. I remember that there was a human anatomy course strictly for students who planned to go into nursing. I think that was part of the vo-tech track.
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