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Old 06-19-2021, 11:43 AM
 
Location: NYC
114 posts, read 41,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siberiaboy View Post
My former high school has long become

90-100 = A
80-89 = B
70-79 = C
60-69 = D
Below 60% is an F
This is the grading scale I remember, but with this added:

75-79 = C+
85-89 = B+
95 - 100 = A+

I graduated high school in 2006 and this was the scale throughout my formative years in two different districts.
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Old 06-19-2021, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Colorado
3,439 posts, read 2,160,713 times
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School district I went to as a child (note: They didn't call it A, B, C, D, F at the time, they assigned different letters to them.)

95%--100% (A)

85%--94% (B)

75%--84% (C)

65%--74% (D)

64% and below (F)
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Old 06-19-2021, 04:53 PM
 
6,645 posts, read 9,450,141 times
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Varied a bit from teacher to teacher or honors to regular, but most followed the standard 10 point scale.
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Old 06-19-2021, 06:04 PM
 
10,479 posts, read 6,671,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Our experiences were clearly different. No school that I attended, from kindergarten through grad school, had an official grading policy that teachers had to follow. And, my high school in particular, officially allowed teachers to override grades. As for tenure, whenever I had teachers who did break a rule, they’d remind us that they have tenure so there is no way to punish them. That usually was enough to get students to shut up. If parents complained to an administrator, the parents would just be told that the teacher has tenure, and there is nothing they can do about it. And that was enough to get parents to shut up. Clearly your experience was different.



Exactly! I made the argument to the principal of my school that, when significant figures are properly used, you cannot calculate a GPA to 2 decimal places (3 significant figures) since the grades only have 1 decimal place (2 significant figures), and I pointed out that this difference cost me a scholarship, since I would have qualified I my GPA was calculated to only 1 decimal place, as it should have been. And I pointed out that teachers would mark completely wrong otherwise correct answers with the wrong number of significant figures, so clearly (at least at his school), significant figures were considered important. His line was that grades are infinitely accurate, so he can use as many decimal places as he wants. I wonder if he seriously believed that grades were infinitely accurate, or if this was just a line to shut up people like myself.
Ultimately sounds like you're illustrating why educators are held in such low esteem in this country. They didn't police their own ranks and how too many kids have grown up to be adults and no longer tolerate their BS.
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Old 06-20-2021, 09:33 AM
 
Location: In the Pearl of the Purchase, Ky
9,984 posts, read 15,676,613 times
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Until I graduated in '74, "F" was below 75. Can't remember all the others but think "A" went down to 94.
One thing that was a life saver from around the 6th through 8th grades, for me, was carbon paper. We had teachers back then who, when you got a bad grade on a test, wanted to you take it home, have your parents sign it to show they saw it, and bring it back the next day. All I had to do was take my bad test paper and a piece of carbon paper, then go to where my parents kept all their paper work, including some they had their signature on, and copy their handwriting onto my paper. Never got caught! lol
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Old 06-21-2021, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
43,102 posts, read 18,713,281 times
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Okay, original poster...now that you have a survey of all the various grading systems people lived under...is there a point you were trying to make?
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Old 06-21-2021, 09:13 AM
 
6,178 posts, read 6,205,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Ultimately sounds like you're illustrating why educators are held in such low esteem in this country. They didn't police their own ranks and how too many kids have grown up to be adults and no longer tolerate their BS.
In at least one thread in the past, I thought you defended teachers who gave arbitrary grades, and I thought that you disagreed with having standards for grades?

And I thought that you agreed in the past that tenure is absolute job projection, and you mentioned in a the past a few teachers who everybody knew were problematic but nobody could do anything about?

Last edited by mitsguy2001; 06-21-2021 at 09:28 AM..
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Old 06-21-2021, 04:03 PM
 
10,479 posts, read 6,671,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
In at least one thread in the past, I thought you defended teachers who gave arbitrary grades, and I thought that you disagreed with having standards for grades?

And I thought that you agreed in the past that tenure is absolute job projection, and you mentioned in a the past a few teachers who everybody knew were problematic but nobody could do anything about?
You've misunderstood things I've said or out of context of that particular discussion.

No I don't defend teachers who give arbitrary grades. I believe teachers should be consistent with how they grade. Nor am I against standards. What I disagree with area:

a. National standards for grades. Mostly for two reasons:
1) National standards tend toward the lowest common denominator. Minimum standards that do nothing to raise the overall level of education and instead bring everything down to a common minimum.
2) Education is something best run at the state and local level. The needs of different students in different parts of the country are different. This is partly how we got into the "everyone must go to college" mantra that has hurt education. Different topic, but related to the idea that everyone has to be the same.
b. Standardized testing. Again, a couple of reasons:
1) Because of how standardized tests are constructed, there is a significant measure of how well someone takes standardized tests rather than how well they know the material. This "error" is significant enough that at the selective ends, the difference in scores on tests such as SAT and ACT can be determined by test prep rather than knowledge. This is one point that should concern you since you're often mentioned scholarship and acceptance decisions being determined by the noise.
2) These scores are so important to schools they spend great effort teaching to the test rather than teaching the material. This improves test scores but greatly limits anything that isn't tested. There is a lot that isn't tested.
c. Teachers giving arbitrary grades: I'm definitely against this. We've all suffered it at one time or another in school. That's a failure of management. Grading standards won't fix this since someone who isn't doing the job properly under one system, won't suddenly do the job properly under another. Instead it will give them cover to be even more arbitrary claiming the "standards required it." I don't defend arbitrary grades; they're just one more unnecessary obstacle in the sea of obstacles that is the American education system to be overcome.
d. Tenure. I'm not against tenure. It serves a useful purpose in protecting free discussion in the classroom. What I'm against is poor teachers hiding behind tenure. Yes, this is another thing we've all experienced -- the bad teacher who goes on and on because nothing can be done about it. Recognizing a reality that's out there doesn't mean I support it. But the thing is, management can do something about it if they do their jobs. I work for the Federal Gov, something that most people claim "You can't fire government employees." Well, as a supervisor, I've done it. It's part of the job of a supervisor. You just have to do the paperwork right and beat your way through all the poor managers who don't want to. Show me a manager who claims they can't do something about a poor teacher because of tenure, and I'll show you a manager who should themselves be fired.

Last edited by tnff; 06-21-2021 at 04:31 PM..
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Old 06-22-2021, 11:03 AM
 
6,178 posts, read 6,205,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
You've misunderstood things I've said or out of context of that particular discussion.

No I don't defend teachers who give arbitrary grades. I believe teachers should be consistent with how they grade. Nor am I against standards. What I disagree with area:

a. National standards for grades. Mostly for two reasons:
1) National standards tend toward the lowest common denominator. Minimum standards that do nothing to raise the overall level of education and instead bring everything down to a common minimum.
2) Education is something best run at the state and local level. The needs of different students in different parts of the country are different. This is partly how we got into the "everyone must go to college" mantra that has hurt education. Different topic, but related to the idea that everyone has to be the same.
So you would support each school or each state having grading standards, even if they are different from one state to another? That could work, maybe.

Quote:
b. Standardized testing. Again, a couple of reasons:
1) Because of how standardized tests are constructed, there is a significant measure of how well someone takes standardized tests rather than how well they know the material. This "error" is significant enough that at the selective ends, the difference in scores on tests such as SAT and ACT can be determined by test prep rather than knowledge. This is one point that should concern you since you're often mentioned scholarship and acceptance decisions being determined by the noise.
2) These scores are so important to schools they spend great effort teaching to the test rather than teaching the material. This improves test scores but greatly limits anything that isn't tested. There is a lot that isn't tested.
I disagree. At least when I was applying to colleges, the focus seemed almost entirely on rank in class. Standardized test scores didn't matter.

Quote:
c. Teachers giving arbitrary grades: I'm definitely against this. We've all suffered it at one time or another in school. That's a failure of management. Grading standards won't fix this since someone who isn't doing the job properly under one system, won't suddenly do the job properly under another.
My idea, which would never be accepted by the teachers' union, would be that any teacher who refuses to follow the grading standards should be fired on the spot, even if they have tenure.

Quote:
Instead it will give them cover to be even more arbitrary claiming the "standards required it."
But then everybody would be following the same rules. For example, some teachers would allow makeup exams if a student was absent from school for a legitimate reason. Other teachers give a 0 for any exam that is missed due to an absence, even for a major illness or a funeral. If the official policy is that makeup exams must be given, then a teacher cannot give a 0 and claim "standards required it". On the other hand, if the policy is that any absence from an exam, for any reason, counts as a 0, then it might not seem fair, but at least every student in the nation will likely have a few 0's due to an ill-timed illness or funeral.

Quote:
I don't defend arbitrary grades; they're just one more unnecessary obstacle in the sea of obstacles that is the American education system to be overcome.
d. Tenure. I'm not against tenure. It serves a useful purpose in protecting free discussion in the classroom.
But why do other professionals not deserve that privilege?

Quote:
What I'm against is poor teachers hiding behind tenure. Yes, this is another thing we've all experienced -- the bad teacher who goes on and on because nothing can be done about it. Recognizing a reality that's out there doesn't mean I support it. But the thing is, management can do something about it if they do their jobs. I work for the Federal Gov, something that most people claim "You can't fire government employees." Well, as a supervisor, I've done it. It's part of the job of a supervisor. You just have to do the paperwork right and beat your way through all the poor managers who don't want to.
My understanding is that civil service employees cannot be fired for any reason. At the federal level, my understanding is that began with a civil service reform law signed by president Chester Arthur, after Garfield was assassinated. I'm guessing your federal job is outside the civil service system.

Quote:
Show me a manager who claims they can't do something about a poor teacher because of tenure, and I'll show you a manager who should themselves be fired.
Who would you say is the most at fault?
  • Teachers who say "I have tenure, there is nothing you can do" to students, in order to shut them up?
  • Students who just accept the "I have tenure" line and don't fight for what is right?
  • Administrators who use the line "I know he/she is a problem, but he/she has tenure, so there is nothing that I can do about it" in order to shut parents up
  • Parents who just accept the "he/she has tenure" line and don't keep fighting?
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Old 06-22-2021, 06:49 PM
 
10,479 posts, read 6,671,571 times
Reputation: 29128
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
So you would support each school or each state having grading standards, even if they are different from one state to another? That could work, maybe.
I would prefer standards at the District level. Parents have the most input at the local level. The higher you get, the less influence parents have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
I disagree. At least when I was applying to colleges, the focus seemed almost entirely on rank in class. Standardized test scores didn't matter.
Today however those SAT and ACT scores count at the top level. If having a tutor for test taking techniques improves the score by just 3-4 points on the ACT, while it may not mean much around the average, that's huge when you get above 28 or so. A difference between a 28 and a 32 can be the difference between a scholarship or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
But then everybody would be following the same rules. For example, some teachers would allow makeup exams if a student was absent from school for a legitimate reason. Other teachers give a 0 for any exam that is missed due to an absence, even for a major illness or a funeral. If the official policy is that makeup exams must be given, then a teacher cannot give a 0 and claim "standards required it". On the other hand, if the policy is that any absence from an exam, for any reason, counts as a 0, then it might not seem fair, but at least every student in the nation will likely have a few 0's due to an ill-timed illness or funeral.
One of the things I've learned in a large bureaucracy is that the more rules, policies, and standards you create, the easier it is for someone who want to be a poor performer to hide behind the rules. More rules do not fix poor performance. If someone is already breaking the rules, why would another rule make any difference? If management doesn't enforce the rules that exist, why would they enforce another?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
But why do other professionals not deserve that privilege?
I'm not arguing they don't. But in a governmental organization, the intent of tenure is to prevent political pressure from influencing work performance. For a teacher that would mean being able to discuss facts, appropriate to the maturity of the students being taught, without fear of being fired for teaching said facts. Nowhere inhere does this mean the teaching of opinion, or half truths, or wrong information, or poor grading or poor teaching. Tenure is not intended to protect poor performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
My understanding is that civil service employees cannot be fired for any reason. At the federal level, my understanding is that began with a civil service reform law signed by president Chester Arthur, after Garfield was assassinated. I'm guessing your federal job is outside the civil service system.
You are referring to the Pendleton Act. But your understanding is incorrect. There is no law that says Civil Servants cannot be fired for any reason. Civil Servants can be fired any just cause reason, typically poor performance, but there are others. They cannot be fired for political reasons. IE Republicans can't fire someone for being a Democrat and Democrats can't fire someone for being a Republican. And before someone heads down that path, both parties are equally guilty of trying.

A new Federal employee must first serve a probationary period and can be fired for any reason other than political, racial, or discriminatory reasons. You can't fire someone for being black or white or male or female and so on. But you can fire them for poor performance.

After they complete probation and receive tenure, they are NOT protected from poor performance. Management just has to do the proper paperwork. Like I said, I've done it. Failure to do so is a management failure, not because of policy or law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Who would you say is the most at fault?
  • Teachers who say "I have tenure, there is nothing you can do" to students, in order to shut them up?
  • Students who just accept the "I have tenure" line and don't fight for what is right?
  • Administrators who use the line "I know he/she is a problem, but he/she has tenure, so there is nothing that I can do about it" in order to shut parents up
  • Parents who just accept the "he/she has tenure" line and don't keep fighting?
Having served a military career before civil service, the person in charge, the Administrator in your list, is always to blame. If they have someone who is a poor performer, they should correct it early and often. If correction doesn't work, remove the person from employment in that role. If you fail to correct, it's your fault. If correction doesn't work and you allow it continue, it's your fault. If it becomes so bad it impacts someone else, it's still your fault. It's the administrator's job. Failure to do it means failure throughout the school in this example.
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