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Old 08-22-2022, 04:56 PM
 
11,658 posts, read 15,638,310 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
What types of jobs do you feel that somebody from CalTech should be considering? Why not your job? For the most part, people with high GPAs from elite colleges are chasing the same jobs as everybody else.
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Somebody with a 3.9 at Caltech absolutely has access to jobs that are completely and totally closed off to the average college student, even the average engineering student.

That said, Caltech is a different animal and a 3.9 from Caltech is totally different than a 3.4 from Columbia. We're talking about fractions of a percentile of the population.

Caltech is really small and focused on advancing tech. For instance, they don't even have a Civil or Environmental Engineering major. They're wrapped into other majors.
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Old 08-22-2022, 05:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jobaba View Post
Somebody with a 3.9 at Caltech absolutely has access to jobs that are completely and totally closed off to the average college student, even the average engineering student.

That said, Caltech is a different animal and a 3.9 from Caltech is totally different than a 3.4 from Columbia. We're talking about fractions of a percentile of the population.

Caltech is really small and focused on advancing tech. For instance, they don't even have a Civil or Environmental Engineering major. They're wrapped into other majors.
Since you say Caltech doesn’t offer civil engineering, what job should somebody with a 3.9 GPA in civil engineering from, say, MIT, go into? Assuming no PhD, and assuming a white male with no military service.

(Yes, I’m aware MIT uses a 5 point system. So, in reality, I’m asking about somebody with a 4.9 from MIT).

(And, I do have a Masters from MIT, but my GPA was nowhere near a 4.9).
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Old 08-22-2022, 05:41 PM
 
10,923 posts, read 7,004,491 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
I agree more with Annandale-Man. Most employers do not even look at GPI. They only care that you have the appropriate degree. If anything, they see high GPA's as a negative, since they prefer employees who had to struggle academically and financially through college. Rightly or wrongly, they feel that such employees have better work ethics, whereas they feel that employees with high GPAs are more academically oriented than real-work oriented.

Also, academia and government might not understand, but most people in the real world know how meaningless GPA is, since, at least at the very top, it's basically a lottery of who gets the easiest teachers. Academia and government believe in the just world fallacy, so they believe that somebody with a 4.0 is objectively better than a 3.98, whereas in the real world, they understand that GPAs shouldn't even be alculated to that many decimal places.
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I haven't seen anywhere that considers high GPA a negative. Remember, we're talking about recent grads who have little to no experience. GPA is an indicator, though I'm not sure how good. You and I do agree, as we've discussed, that calculating GPA out several decimals is way, way beyond the ability to measure. I don't believe it's driven by a "just world" fallacy so much as government HR looking for any metric they can use to differentiate between candidates. I believe there is some value to it, but not as much as HR believes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Keep in mind that you are doing pseudo-academic research, so your experiences do not apply to most real-world jobs.

In other words, you only hire those who had easy teachers and were good at gaming the system. Unlike academia and government, in the real world, people understand that the person with the slightly lower GPA may have taken harder classes, may have had harder professors, may have gotten a 0 on an exam or assignment that he/she missed due to a funeral, etc.

Even at the same school, different teachers and professors grade very differently. In college, the effect is somewhat mitigated in that you have at least some choice of professors. But sometimes, you get stuck with the hard professor, since the easy professor's section might conflict with another class, or the easy professor might not teach the class during the semester that you need it. But at least it's somewhat less of a lottery than high school.
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I acknowledge we're doing research (it seems pretty real world to me), but I don't think my experiences are that significantly different when it comes to hiring. Perhaps, but I've read a few thousand resumes over the years; hired a number of engineers; worked with even more from both government and the private sector. After a while you begin to see real differences between schools. And lots of resumes from the same schools. So much at times you can start to guess the school by the resume format because all the students visit the same placement office and get the same "help" at that school. When you see a lot of resumes and transcripts that list the same classes from the same schools, you start to see which students are below the zone, in the zone, or above the zone compared to their classmates. It kind of washes out the hard professors. But I do think GPA is more problematic across universities than within a single one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post

What types of jobs do you feel that somebody from CalTech should be considering? Why not your job? For the most part, people with high GPAs from elite colleges are chasing the same jobs as everybody else.
Depends on the job and the boss's preference.
I think jobaba had a good answer here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobaba View Post
Somebody with a 3.9 at Caltech absolutely has access to jobs that are completely and totally closed off to the average college student, even the average engineering student.

That said, Caltech is a different animal and a 3.9 from Caltech is totally different than a 3.4 from Columbia. We're talking about fractions of a percentile of the population.

Caltech is really small and focused on advancing tech. For instance, they don't even have a Civil or Environmental Engineering major. They're wrapped into other majors.
A Caltech grad has so many better options available that just aren't there for most of us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Depends on the job and the boss's preference.
The Army vs Navy was a bit of an inside joke. There is a bit of a competition on which is the better school (and Air Force), but "Army beat Navy" is a specific reference that some out there will get.
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Old 08-22-2022, 06:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Since you say Caltech doesn’t offer civil engineering, what job should somebody with a 3.9 GPA in civil engineering from, say, MIT, go into? Assuming no PhD, and assuming a white male with no military service.

(Yes, I’m aware MIT uses a 5 point system. So, in reality, I’m asking about somebody with a 4.9 from MIT).

(And, I do have a Masters from MIT, but my GPA was nowhere near a 4.9).
Congrats, that's an excellent school (obviously).

If you only had an undergrad degree from Caltech or MIT, then your options would be various trading companies, Goldman Sachs, consulting management, think tanks, Google, Facebook, etc, etc.

Even with BSCE, it's fair enough to say that you're just doing 'general studies' and what you really want to do/try is work at the aforementioned options and you probably beat out people who actually have business/Comp sci degrees from 'lesser' schools.

Even if you had a Masters in CE, it would probably work too as long as you did it in a straight line. If you're 30 years old though, then your options are probably ... Civil Engineering.
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Old 08-22-2022, 06:28 PM
 
36,485 posts, read 56,004,181 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Over in another threat, Annandale-Man raised this point.



I think that's an interesting point because while on the one hand we may want to ignore it, on the other hand HR and others don't, esp when it comes to that critical first or second job after graduation. I know for example that our HR uses it both as a filter and a rank order when presenting candidates to us, and as a sorting gate for what the max is they will offer a new candidate.

For certain jobs designed specifically for new graduates, they will filter out those below 3.0 and use GPA in their ordering of candidates. We don't have to follow their ranking but can't hire below 3.0 into these jobs.

For other jobs we can go below 3.0 but they will get offered a lower entry pay scale. Basically, giving them a year to prove their ability before they can move into the engineer pay scale even though they have an engineering degree.

I'm kind of torn by the whole thing with my biggest thought/concern being where someone got that GPA rather than the absolute value of it. Is a 3.5 from Tennessee Tech equal to a 3.5 from Georgia Tech? Does a 2.9 from TAMU beat a 3.1 from Alabama? Why would a 3.9 from CalTech even consider the job? Does Army beat Navy?
My daughter teaches in FL/Sarasota County
She could have gotten bonus based on her GPA in college—
Been teaching over 15 yrs, has master’s, nominated for teacher of year more than once—one in her elementary area once
She missed the bonus by tenth of point…
Teachers always appreciate more money so she would have been happy to qualify
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Old 08-22-2022, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
27,743 posts, read 14,683,147 times
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Where GPA has been important in my experience in the work environment, it has been for entry level jobs. Now, I'm talking about entry level but still professional jobs, to include jobs in law and finance, and then generally only at the most competitive and prestigious firms. But once you're able to build up experience in the field, I've seen GPA been a non-issue that nobody asks about. Because, by then, you should have an actual record to show for yourself.
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Old 08-22-2022, 10:54 PM
 
6,470 posts, read 6,370,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I haven't seen anywhere that considers high GPA a negative. Remember, we're talking about recent grads who have little to no experience. GPA is an indicator, though I'm not sure how good. You and I do agree, as we've discussed, that calculating GPA out several decimals is way, way beyond the ability to measure. I don't believe it's driven by a "just world" fallacy so much as government HR looking for any metric they can use to differentiate between candidates. I believe there is some value to it, but not as much as HR believes.
And certainly not as much as college admissions officers or high school administrators believe.

In any case, both of the jobs that I had made it very clear that they view my Masters from MIT as a negative, as I've mentioned here before, many times.

Quote:
I acknowledge we're doing research (it seems pretty real world to me), but I don't think my experiences are that significantly different when it comes to hiring. Perhaps, but I've read a few thousand resumes over the years; hired a number of engineers; worked with even more from both government and the private sector. After a while you begin to see real differences between schools. And lots of resumes from the same schools. So much at times you can start to guess the school by the resume format because all the students visit the same placement office and get the same "help" at that school. When you see a lot of resumes and transcripts that list the same classes from the same schools, you start to see which students are below the zone, in the zone, or above the zone compared to their classmates. It kind of washes out the hard professors. But I do think GPA is more problematic across universities than within a single one.
I guess that makes sense in a very small field that is only offered by a small number of schools.

Quote:
I think jobaba had a good answer here:


A Caltech grad has so many better options available that just aren't there for most of us.
Such as?
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Old 08-22-2022, 10:58 PM
 
6,470 posts, read 6,370,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jobaba View Post
Congrats, that's an excellent school (obviously).n

If you only had an undergrad degree from Caltech or MIT, then your options would be various trading companies, Goldman Sachs, consulting management, think tanks, Google, Facebook, etc, etc.
But not everybody wants to work for such companies. The companies that you describe require relocating to a specific place, which might not be where your family is, and might not be where you'd want to live. And they require very long hours, especially investment banking. And, not sure about the others, but employers such as Goldman Sachs are very image focused.

Quote:
Even with BSCE, it's fair enough to say that you're just doing 'general studies' and what you really want to do/try is work at the aforementioned options and you probably beat out people who actually have business/Comp sci degrees from 'lesser' schools.
But, again, what about people who have no interest in working at the options that you listed above?

Quote:
Even if you had a Masters in CE, it would probably work too as long as you did it in a straight line. If you're 30 years old though, then your options are probably ... Civil Engineering.
And that's my point exactly. Even if you have a 3.9 at Caltech or a 4.9 at MIT, most likely, you will end up working at the same employers as everybody else.
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Old 08-23-2022, 08:24 AM
 
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I had a employee that finished college (decent university). He got an economics degree but the job offers were non-existent. I always thought very highly of this guy, he was smart to talk to. He lets it slip that he graduated with a 2.6 GPA......I laughed at him, I thought he was joking! He took the first and only offer he got in 9 months post graduation, working for a discount brokerage in the midwest for 40K a year.

GPA was a C average, he got paid appropriately for his efforts.
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Old 08-23-2022, 09:06 AM
 
9,490 posts, read 12,716,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
I'm not saying that the employers are right, just that it's the way many employers think.
Please provide any proof of this.
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