"School Is for Wasting Time and Money" (community college, counselors, high school)

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by TowBar

Speaking from my own experiences, I don't believe college is that beneficial. I never went to college myself, instead going into the military. In the military there was a big push for us to take classes towards earning a degree. I never did, other than taking a basic math class because I felt pressured to take courses to better myself (it was the company line).

After military retirement I have worked with and around many people who did invest in a college degree. My observation is their return on investment was negative. I have worked side-by-side with people who had degrees, including one guy who had 2 master’s degrees. They didn't seem to be any smarter than me, and in fact the guy with 2 masters seemed kind of slow (book smart but not so real-world smart). Those degree holders I worked side-by-side with did the same job as me, and we earned the same pay. The difference is they were paying off student loans, while I wasn't.

That may have held for the small group of people you noted. Across the cadres of those with degrees v. those with no degree your analysis does not work out.

[modest]

Originally Posted by jobaba

Music. I play various types of music and have done so for 25+ years.

I have a degree in Civil Engineering. That has always been about trying to find various degrees of a more interesting, less punishing day job. Not a passion.

How are you on the guitar? It's something I've been trying to pick up a lot more these days, especially with remote work. It's something I wished I had picked up earlier in life, but no time is better than the present.

Have you played any live shows, say at a bar or something? It sounds like it could be a good outlet for you.

[modest]

Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer

Another thing that is very ritualistic about school is the obsession so many of them have with sports.

How many people are ever going to have a career as an athlete?

Yet, that is all part of the “game” that is played by our educational system.

If it don't make dollars, it don't make sense.

Sports is a huge money grab for those particular programs. It also serves to promote the brand of those schools. Groundbreaking, academic research isn't nearly as sexy as a National Championship title.

[modest]

Originally Posted by TowBar

Speaking from my own experiences, I don't believe college is that beneficial. I never went to college myself, instead going into the military. In the military there was a big push for us to take classes towards earning a degree. I never did, other than taking a basic math class because I felt pressured to take courses to better myself (it was the company line).

After military retirement I have worked with and around many people who did invest in a college degree. My observation is their return on investment was negative. I have worked side-by-side with people who had degrees, including one guy who had 2 master’s degrees. They didn't seem to be any smarter than me, and in fact the guy with 2 masters seemed kind of slow (book smart but not so real-world smart). Those degree holders I worked side-by-side with did the same job as me, and we earned the same pay. The difference is they were paying off student loans, while I wasn't.

A concept you might look into is anecdotal evidence versus empirical evidence.

[jtab4994]

Originally Posted by modest

A concept you might look into is anecdotal evidence versus empirical evidence.

People who drive Corvettes generally earn more than people who drive Toyotas. Therefore if you drive a Corvette you will earn more money, so buy a Corvette.

People who are successful after college are smart and hard-working. People who are unsuccessful after college are dumb and lazy, and buying a Corvette with taxpayer money won't make them smart or hard-working.

[modest]

Originally Posted by jtab4994

People who drive Corvettes generally earn more than people who drive Toyotas. Therefore if you drive a Corvette you will earn more money, so buy a Corvette.

People who are successful after college are smart and hard-working. People who are unsuccessful after college are dumb and lazy, and buying a Corvette with taxpayer money won't make them smart or hard-working.

People and businesses who file for bankruptcy must also be pretty dumb and lazy. People who received PPP loans and had them forgiven should pay them back. Deductions and tax credits are defrauding the tax system and nobody should be entitled to those.

Any other random, radical thoughts?

[jtab4994]

Originally Posted by modest

People and businesses who file for bankruptcy must also be pretty dumb and lazy. People who received PPP loans and had them forgiven should pay them back. Deductions and tax credits are defrauding the tax system and nobody should be entitled to those.

Any other random, radical thoughts?

The original PPP "loans" were scheduled to become grants if the company did not lay anyone off. I understand Left Wing media has twisted that a bit recently. But correct me if I'm wrong about PPP grants.

Why are you bringing tax deductions into the discussion? I am not complaining that student loan interest is tax deductible.

The point I was rebutting is that "people who randomly have a college degree earn more than people who randomly don't". It's not random. Going to college won't make you smarter or more able to earn money if you are not smart and/or hard-working to begin with. In fact it will probably make you poorer because you'll have loans that can't be discharged in bankruptcy.

[modest]

Originally Posted by jtab4994

The point I was rebutting is that "people who randomly have a college degree earn more than people who randomly don't". It's not random. Going to college won't make you smarter or more able to earn money if you are not smart and/or hard-working to begin with. In fact it will probably make you poorer because you'll have loans that can't be discharged in bankruptcy.

You should keep your political slant reserved for the P&OC forum, because this is the Education forum.

I don't think that anybody believes that college makes you inherently smarter. IQ =/= GPA (a performance metric, not an IQ gauge). If done correctly, the college experience does expand on your critical thinking skills and broaden your horizons beyond whatever potentially myopic frame of reference you were derived from.

I see a lack of this all the time from people who spew out nonsense while having absolutely no self-awareness or wherewithal to understand something outside their small bubble of reality--because they've never been exposed to anything else. Of course, they don't see it, because they're usually too dense or isolated. When you mix in some narcissism or sociopathy, it's a very dangerous combination. Because then you have people who are not only ignorant about that which they speak, they have zero empathy for others and think very highly of their own opinions. But I'd rather deal with a dumb narcissist/sociopath than a smart one.

[tnff]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Oh, really? That's news to me. Somehow I only remember a general impression of agreeing with you on some points.

Yes, I researched Cato a couple of years ago. Scary. Thanks for your input.

Sorry that wasn't meant in a negative way. Just that we have different views on some topics but also agree on others. Apologize if it came across wrong.

[StealthRabbit]

because this is the Education forum.

...

There will not be a positive or even possible alternative education discussion, as it's not wise to bite the hand that feeds you. Whether currently feeding at the trough, or via pension.

Same in private industry, the bosses who were abusive and trampled their employees and peers and left a lot of bloodshed (some literally). Will go to their grave justified, in their own eyes. How else could they go on living?

Let them gloat on their grand accomplishments, someone else is picking up the pieces and will make the necessary changes to improve the outcomes. We already know who won't. (Or didn't when they could have). Their commitment and priorities (self) are very clear to the rest of us.