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Old 11-21-2022, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
9,534 posts, read 6,319,069 times
Reputation: 16421

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ312 View Post
I oppose college loan forgiveness. I have an advanced degree.

A lot of the K-12 education system and the college education system in the United States is messed up. It needs serious reform. I would start with massive across the board cuts to public education funding. I'm talking 50%+. So much waste and bureaucratic nonsense. I would like to send a large portion of K-12 teachers and college professors to the unemployment line.

This nation spends way too much on education and we're not seeing results from our spending. Besides, the population is aging, Millennials are having fewer kids on a per person basis. An aging population doesn't need education spending.

We need to be more efficient and more effective with less money.

The vast majority of bachelor's degrees are useless. We learned that in the late 2000s recession with the rise of the college educated Starbucks barista.
Oh, you benefitted from education but don't want anyone else to.

Oh and the college educated barista is a myth:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-man...ally-baristas/


Quote:
It seems like everyone has heard about college grads who are stuck serving up lattes at Starbucks (SBUX), earning barely more per hour than the price of a venti caramel Frappuccino.

But is that really happening to America's newest college grads? In what may cause a huge sigh of relief to parents and students everywhere, not so much, according to new research from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

The recession and recovery years have been tough for the millennial generation, which graduated into a weak labor market while owing an average of $30,000 in student debt. Anecdotes are common about recent grads failing to find work in their areas of study and turning to low-paying service jobs such as baristas and waiters.

But those anecdotes aren't supported by economic data, according to the N.Y. Fed researchers who found only a small percentage of grads worked in low-pay service jobs in the four years following the recession.

"People love to use the image of a college-educated barista," said Richard Dietz, assistant vice president at the N.Y. Fed. "We realized it was a lot less pervasive than you might be led to believe." Only about 9 percent of all recent college graduates worked in a low-skill service job from 2009 through 2013, the four years following the recession.

Last edited by redguard57; 11-21-2022 at 05:45 PM..
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Old 11-21-2022, 05:37 PM
 
9,514 posts, read 5,390,046 times
Reputation: 18694
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ312 View Post
I oppose college loan forgiveness. I have an advanced degree.

A lot of the K-12 education system and the college education system in the United States is messed up. It needs serious reform. I would start with massive across the board cuts to public education funding. I'm talking 50%+. So much waste and bureaucratic nonsense. I would like to send a large portion of K-12 teachers and college professors to the unemployment line.

This nation spends way too much on education and we're not seeing results from our spending. Besides, the population is aging, Millennials are having fewer kids on a per person basis. An aging population doesn't need education spending.

We need to be more efficient and more effective with less money.

The vast majority of bachelor's degrees are useless. We learned that in the late 2000s recession with the rise of the college educated Starbucks barista.
So because millennials are having fewer kids, the answer is to not educate those kids at all? I am not sure how that makes sense.

My understanding is that colleges have been talking about this cliff for like 5 years already and it’s likely that many schools will end up going under. Those that survive will have to offer options that appeal to students, be it in the form of more reasonable tuition, majors that give more bang for the buck, or other tangible benefits. A school that charges $70K a year and doesn’t offer the vast majority of students significant scholarship money is probably not going to survive.

FWIW, a lot of the pending shortages are in aging professions- like medicine. Many doctors and nurses are baby boomers and there hasn’t been a great replacement rate. There is some progress in hiring mid-level professionals like NPs/PAs, but that still isn’t meeting the demand for healthcare. NPs and PAs also require advanced education. Another field that has a pending shortage is pilots, and that’s also not a job you can get off the street. You need some sort of education for that and fewer people are going the military to commercial pilot route. Colleges that focus on this are also insanely expensive, so there isn’t too much appeal. The list goes on for professions that are going to be in dire need of new employees in a few years.
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Old 11-21-2022, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
9,534 posts, read 6,319,069 times
Reputation: 16421
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict View Post
So because millennials are having fewer kids, the answer is to not educate those kids at all? I am not sure how that makes sense.

My understanding is that colleges have been talking about this cliff for like 5 years already and it’s likely that many schools will end up going under. Those that survive will have to offer options that appeal to students, be it in the form of more reasonable tuition, majors that give more bang for the buck, or other tangible benefits. A school that charges $70K a year and doesn’t offer the vast majority of students significant scholarship money is probably not going to survive.

FWIW, a lot of the pending shortages are in aging professions- like medicine. Many doctors and nurses are baby boomers and there hasn’t been a great replacement rate. There is some progress in hiring mid-level professionals like NPs/PAs, but that still isn’t meeting the demand for healthcare. NPs and PAs also require advanced education. Another field that has a pending shortage is pilots, and that’s also not a job you can get off the street. You need some sort of education for that and fewer people are going the military to commercial pilot route. Colleges that focus on this are also insanely expensive, so there isn’t too much appeal. The list goes on for professions that are going to be in dire need of new employees in a few years.
It won't be the end of higher ed by a long shot. But it looks like it's going into a period of stagnation & moderate decline, so it will right-size. It has gone through periods of stagnation before. Yes, some private institutions will close or more likely, consolidate with others, and a lot of public ones will probably go into sustainability mode.

This article tells the history pretty well, and describes how the industry responded to prior periods of decline and stagnation.
https://www.chronicle.com/article/th...g-of-higher-ed

The are still 15 million college students in the U.S. If that declines to 12-13M, the industry will survive.
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Old 11-23-2022, 08:24 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
31,607 posts, read 52,054,455 times
Reputation: 40358
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
...
Oh and the college educated barista is a myth:

...
How many barista's do you employ? What is their edu status?

We just returned from a 5 week trip to western Europe and an Atlantic Crossing via ship.

Nearly all our Hotel staff and cruise ship stewards, housekeeping, and servers (800+) were college degreed. Several in the retail and management side had 3+ degrees including tourism, finance, teaching. The sales staff at the collectibles dept (retail) were all holders of Master + degrees. Chances are none of these are pulling in anywhere near the salary and tips of a USA Barista.

Reminds me of a quote from an engineering coworker who paid for 3 degrees for their child. Happily working at Mc Donalds.

"I sure wish they would have "found themselves", BEFORE pursuing college."

It happens... (a lot).

Only 25% of our USA Stem grads remain in their fields for over 5 yrs. (there are better opportunities and fit for many).

Great idea to discover that about age 13 - 16.
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Old 11-23-2022, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
9,534 posts, read 6,319,069 times
Reputation: 16421
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
How many barista's do you employ? What is their edu status?

We just returned from a 5 week trip to western Europe and an Atlantic Crossing via ship.

Nearly all our Hotel staff and cruise ship stewards, housekeeping, and servers (800+) were college degreed. Several in the retail and management side had 3+ degrees including tourism, finance, teaching. The sales staff at the collectibles dept (retail) were all holders of Master + degrees. Chances are none of these are pulling in anywhere near the salary and tips of a USA Barista.

Reminds me of a quote from an engineering coworker who paid for 3 degrees for their child. Happily working at Mc Donalds.

"I sure wish they would have "found themselves", BEFORE pursuing college."

It happens... (a lot).

Only 25% of our USA Stem grads remain in their fields for over 5 yrs. (there are better opportunities and fit for many).

Great idea to discover that about age 13 - 16.
I worked at retail jobs while IN college, and graduates rarely stayed long. There were lots of students and people who had some credits but didn't finish, though.

Curious to criticize people in management of a cruise ship compant who studied tourism and finance. Sounds like they are using their education.
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Old 11-23-2022, 05:27 PM
 
9,514 posts, read 5,390,046 times
Reputation: 18694
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
I worked at retail jobs while IN college, and graduates rarely stayed long. There were lots of students and people who had some credits but didn't finish, though.

Curious to criticize people in management of a cruise ship compant who studied tourism and finance. Sounds like they are using their education.
It seems weird to me that SR categorizes a cruise ship job as some undesirable job. I think a while back (like a decade or two) I calculated that a server would make on average of $10 an hour. However, they also get free room and board and typically switch ships between contracts. This allows them to see different parts of the world. My understanding is that higher level positions typically get the opportunity to eat in non-reserved passenger areas like the buffet or other casual counter service areas. Another thing to keep in mind is that most of the people working on cruise ships do not speak English or the primary language of the ship as their first language, so it’s likely that most who come on will be fairly educated.

I watched that HBO documentary about the Diamond Princess(?) when it was stuck in port forever during COVID and no one let them come off. At that point, even the Filipinos who were stuck on there the longest said they loved working on cruise ships and couldn’t wait to return. This just seems to be a weird analogy to make. FWIW, I have been on inclusive tours both in the US and abroad and IIRC all the tour guides I’ve had are also college educated. These types of jobs appeal to people who want a more adventurous lifestyle.
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Old 11-26-2022, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Where clams are a pizza topping
339 posts, read 137,861 times
Reputation: 919
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
College is pretty useless until you need it. Being able to analyze Shakespeare is useless until at some point in your life you actually need to use the set of skills and mental bandwidth you activated by analyzing Shakespeare.

Ultimately everything you learn is generally useless until it's not.

Biggest career mistake I ever made was taking away a college degree requirement for a job class. My thinking was, "any decently smart high school grad can be trained to do this." No. No they couldn't. I almost got fired because it was my initiative and those people crashed and burned. Put it back to bachelors required and suddenly most candidates were able to do the tasks again.
A few years back, my employer instituted a minimum of a bachelor’s degree for all new hires. An unintended consequence was that it eliminated the need for lower-level management (most of whom were older and did not have a degree), because new hires needed less training, less direct supervision, and were able to absorb the tasks that had been done by lower management. Being a state agency, taking measures to reduce red tape may he revolutionary, but overall it has been a net positive.
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Old 11-28-2022, 12:54 PM
 
1,298 posts, read 1,452,599 times
Reputation: 3104
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Only 25% of our USA Stem grads remain in their fields for over 5 yrs. (there are better opportunities and fit for many).
And how many were in other degree-required positions? You seem to be implying that 75% wasted getting a degree when that isn't the case at all, they just chose to use their STEM degree in a non-STEM field.
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Old 11-30-2022, 02:43 PM
 
562 posts, read 245,617 times
Reputation: 1354
Part of this is culture. Depends where you are. In the northeast, education is seen as really important; grown-ups will urge their children to get educated and how important it is. In the south, education is seen as a little perk; if you get it, you get it, you don't do you don't.
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Old 11-30-2022, 03:29 PM
 
Location: North by Northwest
8,928 posts, read 11,998,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lair8 View Post
Part of this is culture. Depends where you are. In the northeast, education is seen as really important; grown-ups will urge their children to get educated and how important it is. In the south, education is seen as a little perk; if you get it, you get it, you don't do you don't.
I think that greatly depends on how you define the South and which circles you run in down South. I have to imagine that parents living in, say, Mountain Brook, AL, are every bit as likely to place a premium on education as those from Newton, MA. I can agree that pedigree and prestige is probably more of a factor outside the South (and in the Northeast in particular).
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