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Old 10-21-2022, 04:21 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
45,166 posts, read 19,787,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20 View Post
I would allow the unions, but eliminate their ability to strike and their ability to collectively bargain. Then, their main purpose would be helping teachers with grievances and lobbying the legislatures. That's how it works in Texas.
My approach would be slightly different, but I, too, would allow the unions and allow them to have a stake in collective bargaining. However, I'm not in favor of striking, although I don't mind limiting certain other activities such as 'work to the rule'. I would limit their ability to help teachers with grievances.
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Old 10-21-2022, 04:22 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
45,166 posts, read 19,787,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I would be almost the opposite. The real problem with teachers unions is the fact that they can, and do, lobby legislatures, Congress, ED, and various state and local agencies and boards. Education would be much better off if all they did was focus on collective bargaining and grievances.

Just go to the NEA website and look at its lobbying agenda. How little of it is devoted to things like educational quality, teacher quality, or outcomes and how much is devoted to various social agenda items.

Or look at the AFT, such as here: https://www.aft.org/about/resolutions Where is the focus on EDUCATION in that?
I never met a teacher who said they ever looked at the NEA or AFT website. I'm sure some did, but none that I ever knew ever mentioned it.
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Old 10-21-2022, 07:10 AM
 
684 posts, read 346,481 times
Reputation: 1775
Quote:
Originally Posted by beach43ofus View Post
1) eliminate the federal department of education

2) eliminate all teachers unions, & any unions in the public education field

3) allow school choice everywhere

4) allow school vouchers so parents can get a tax credit on the ed part of their property taxes, so public schools would have to compete against private schools for students.

5) make school year round until America is rated #1 in the World
1) Without some sort of federal department, how will we know that kids learning in New Hampshire are learning as much (and the same things) as kids in Nebraska or Idaho?

2) Another group that often can't strike is police. I think the logic goes, "If police go on strike, crooks can get away with anything." True. But what stops the public from abusing the police, refusing to pay them a fair wage or addressing their grievances, etc.? Where's the happy medium? If good cops quit because they can't get a fair shake, then what?

3) If you allow that, prepare for a couple things. First, you make parents the educational experts. A) charter schools may have a bad track record, but they'll court parents for the voucher.

https://networkforpubliceducation.or...ools%C6%92.pdf

B) When some inner city schools, which were already struggling, lose students (and consequently funding), it may be the straw that broke the camel's back. Without enough money, the school closes and EVERYBODY has to leave. How far do we need to bus them?

4) This was debated at one point and the thing was, the very test that "proved" a public school wasn't performing would not be used to determine whether the private schools did any better. Never mind that private schools would cherry pick strong students to make themselves look good (and avoid special ed students who would need lots of support while bringing the average down). It was obvious that private schools didn't have to prove anything...really it was just a ploy to divert public funds into private schools. And if a charter went bankrupt, public schools would have to take the kid back even though his voucher had already been spent.

5) I've heard many approaches. Some think we should make the days 25% longer, meaning school meets Monday thru Thursday and have three day weekends. That could save money because you aren't running the heat, cafeteria workers only get paid for four days, etc. I'm not going to criticize it without knowing more, but I think you have to ask whether the education is improved or not---I don't want to be penny wise and dollar foolish, saving money to the detriment of their education.

And people outside education may not realize it, but a lot of times we're not in charge. People may debate what time is best to start school in the morning for instance, but don't forget that not all schools have their own transportation: a privately owned bus service determines when you can start. What determines the optimal start date for a school year? The electric bill.

A lot comes down to what the parents want, but I've heard that the custodial staff needs a couple months to bring the building back up to snuff. I wonder if we would be better off without a long summer vacation, but injecting more time off periodically during the year. If you're implying that teachers etc. are going to start working, 8-10 extra weeks, then they need to be paid for it.

And now, back to his highness's agenda:

I think that we need to teach students about good logic and arguments. Jumping on the bandwagon doesn't make it right, nor does might make right, the ends do not justify the means, name-calling proves nothing, and so on. Parents used to talk to kids about that, but now?

https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/c...ical-fallacies

Also, reading is a critical skill, especially reading the fine print. I was very surprised the other day, shopping on amazon. They had a flash for camera listed and I noticed you can buy it in payments. APR? Varies, between 10-30%. 30%? Are you kidding me? I've heard that financing usually comes from Delaware, because they don't have laws against usury.

We had a class in high school called "consumer economics." We learned how to do our taxes, what to expect to pay for mortgages (fees, points, etc.), some basics of the stock market, credit cards and interest, and more. Students also need to learn about credit history, bankruptcy, and more. I had kids at one school who didn't trust the banks, went to check cashing places, and were bound not to build much of a credit score...

I'll also mention cybersecurity. I think schools are already teaching it but tech changes all the time and there are multiple concerns. Some want to steal identity, others are after money, and then there's potential for sextortion. It will be an endless game of cops and robbers, I'd say. Here's a story that stuck with me a long time...minors are vulnerable but a lot of adults might fall for the same thing.

https://www.wired.com/2010/02/teen-g...sex-extortion/

And I'd like them to learn about pecking order, for lack of a better term. I had kids come up and tell me they were going to another class to make up a test. Um, no, I'm in charge and you need to ask me. And I can certainly say no. It isn't a power trip but rather, how things work. We had a police officer on campus and I overheard some conversations where the student clearly didn't understand who was in charge. "We can go downtown and talk about this with you in an orange jumpsuit if you'd rather," I heard him say to a kid one day.

I wish I could remember a line I read about a gang member once, saying, "He wouldn't know how to interact with an authority figure, if he ever met one." In other words, his parents aren't acting like parents so he figures he's in charge.
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Old 10-21-2022, 08:57 AM
 
16,193 posts, read 14,701,252 times
Reputation: 14612
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILTXwhatnext View Post
1) Without some sort of federal department, how will we know that kids learning in New Hampshire are learning as much (and the same things) as kids in Nebraska or Idaho?

2) Another group that often can't strike is police. I think the logic goes, "If police go on strike, crooks can get away with anything." True. But what stops the public from abusing the police, refusing to pay them a fair wage or addressing their grievances, etc.? Where's the happy medium? If good cops quit because they can't get a fair shake, then what?

3) If you allow that, prepare for a couple things. First, you make parents the educational experts. A) charter schools may have a bad track record, but they'll court parents for the voucher.

https://networkforpubliceducation.or...ools%C6%92.pdf

B) When some inner city schools, which were already struggling, lose students (and consequently funding), it may be the straw that broke the camel's back. Without enough money, the school closes and EVERYBODY has to leave. How far do we need to bus them?

4) This was debated at one point and the thing was, the very test that "proved" a public school wasn't performing would not be used to determine whether the private schools did any better. Never mind that private schools would cherry pick strong students to make themselves look good (and avoid special ed students who would need lots of support while bringing the average down). It was obvious that private schools didn't have to prove anything...really it was just a ploy to divert public funds into private schools. And if a charter went bankrupt, public schools would have to take the kid back even though his voucher had already been spent.

5) I've heard many approaches. Some think we should make the days 25% longer, meaning school meets Monday thru Thursday and have three day weekends. That could save money because you aren't running the heat, cafeteria workers only get paid for four days, etc. I'm not going to criticize it without knowing more, but I think you have to ask whether the education is improved or not---I don't want to be penny wise and dollar foolish, saving money to the detriment of their education.

And people outside education may not realize it, but a lot of times we're not in charge. People may debate what time is best to start school in the morning for instance, but don't forget that not all schools have their own transportation: a privately owned bus service determines when you can start. What determines the optimal start date for a school year? The electric bill.

A lot comes down to what the parents want, but I've heard that the custodial staff needs a couple months to bring the building back up to snuff. I wonder if we would be better off without a long summer vacation, but injecting more time off periodically during the year. If you're implying that teachers etc. are going to start working, 8-10 extra weeks, then they need to be paid for it.

And now, back to his highness's agenda:

I think that we need to teach students about good logic and arguments. Jumping on the bandwagon doesn't make it right, nor does might make right, the ends do not justify the means, name-calling proves nothing, and so on. Parents used to talk to kids about that, but now?

https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/c...ical-fallacies

Also, reading is a critical skill, especially reading the fine print. I was very surprised the other day, shopping on amazon. They had a flash for camera listed and I noticed you can buy it in payments. APR? Varies, between 10-30%. 30%? Are you kidding me? I've heard that financing usually comes from Delaware, because they don't have laws against usury.

We had a class in high school called "consumer economics." We learned how to do our taxes, what to expect to pay for mortgages (fees, points, etc.), some basics of the stock market, credit cards and interest, and more. Students also need to learn about credit history, bankruptcy, and more. I had kids at one school who didn't trust the banks, went to check cashing places, and were bound not to build much of a credit score...

I'll also mention cybersecurity. I think schools are already teaching it but tech changes all the time and there are multiple concerns. Some want to steal identity, others are after money, and then there's potential for sextortion. It will be an endless game of cops and robbers, I'd say. Here's a story that stuck with me a long time...minors are vulnerable but a lot of adults might fall for the same thing.

https://www.wired.com/2010/02/teen-g...sex-extortion/

And I'd like them to learn about pecking order, for lack of a better term. I had kids come up and tell me they were going to another class to make up a test. Um, no, I'm in charge and you need to ask me. And I can certainly say no. It isn't a power trip but rather, how things work. We had a police officer on campus and I overheard some conversations where the student clearly didn't understand who was in charge. "We can go downtown and talk about this with you in an orange jumpsuit if you'd rather," I heard him say to a kid one day.

I wish I could remember a line I read about a gang member once, saying, "He wouldn't know how to interact with an authority figure, if he ever met one." In other words, his parents aren't acting like parents so he figures he's in charge.

Per 1 PSAT, SAT, ACT, PISA etc. are used to ID K-12 accomplishment across the country.


Some charter schools have bad track records. Several around here, some in really rough parts of Dallas and Dallas County perform well. Charters doing well has forced DISD to up its game after decades fighting any attempts at change DISD now has several G&T schools, same sex schools, teacher merit pay initiatives etc. Almost all of that happened after charters kicked the donkey if you will.


So far as parents being in charge.......teachers and teaching experts being in charge has led us to where we are now. And that s the unacceptable position of paying the most, proportionally second or third, in the world for about 30th place on the pecking order.


I'm not following your point about testing and publics and privates?
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Old 10-21-2022, 09:08 AM
 
10,308 posts, read 3,971,164 times
Reputation: 14341
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Per 1 PSAT, SAT, ACT, PISA etc. are used to ID K-12 accomplishment across the country.


Some charter schools have bad track records. Several around here, some in really rough parts of Dallas and Dallas County perform well. Charters doing well has forced DISD to up its game after decades fighting any attempts at change DISD now has several G&T schools, same sex schools, teacher merit pay initiatives etc. Almost all of that happened after charters kicked the donkey if you will.


So far as parents being in charge.......teachers and teaching experts being in charge has led us to where we are now. And that s the unacceptable position of paying the most, proportionally second or third, in the world for about 30th place on the pecking order.


I'm not following your point about testing and publics and privates?
No one knows how private schools perform, because they are not subject to the same testing requirements as public schools. In Texas, all public school students are required to take the STAAR test, which is used to rate schools and districts. Charter and private school students are not required take that test. It is much easier to teach well when there is no high stakes testing involved.
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Old 10-21-2022, 09:29 AM
 
16,193 posts, read 14,701,252 times
Reputation: 14612
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20 View Post
No one knows how private schools perform, because they are not subject to the same testing requirements as public schools. In Texas, all public school students are required to take the STAAR test, which is used to rate schools and districts. Charter and private school students are not required take that test. It is much easier to teach well when there is no high stakes testing involved.

Nonsense on all counts.

1. Just about every country in the world that kicks our butts per K-12 has high stakes testing that makes the STAAR look like a walk in the park.

A. Engaged kids who are taught well do not struggle with the STAAR test.

B. Even in The US just about every important educational pathway has a gatekeeping test, set of tests, many tests.

2. It's easy to tell how private schools, high schools anyway, are performing via SAT and ACT and secondarily college admit metrics, NMSF numbers.


ETA - the boys private down the street has an average SAT of 1530, ACT of 35 and every year around 25% of grads have NMSF status.

My son attend another private even closer - they publish all of these numbers. So does my daughter's school.


In Houston I assure you in two minutes you could find out the above info. about St. Johns, St. Agnes, Strake, John Cooper etc.....

Last edited by EDS_; 10-21-2022 at 09:37 AM..
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Old 10-21-2022, 10:34 AM
 
684 posts, read 346,481 times
Reputation: 1775
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Per 1 PSAT, SAT, ACT, PISA etc. are used to ID K-12 accomplishment across the country.


Some charter schools have bad track records. Several around here, some in really rough parts of Dallas and Dallas County perform well. Charters doing well has forced DISD to up its game after decades fighting any attempts at change DISD now has several G&T schools, same sex schools, teacher merit pay initiatives etc. Almost all of that happened after charters kicked the donkey if you will.


So far as parents being in charge.......teachers and teaching experts being in charge has led us to where we are now. And that s the unacceptable position of paying the most, proportionally second or third, in the world for about 30th place on the pecking order.


I'm not following your point about testing and publics and privates?
I suffered under NCLB, which of course came from on high. Then you have state level demands and local requirements. It seems like one of those disasters built by a committee.

Nowadays it's STAAR in Texas but I don't think it was at the time. But to illustrate, if you tell me that public schools aren't doing well and these STAAR tests prove it...then naturally if you're giving public funds to private schools, they should be tested with STAAR to prove that they're doing a better job. But proponents of giving vouchers or whatever to private schools didn't want to do that.

I'm indulging in a little fantasy here, but what if they did test private schools who were receiving public funds? And let's be more apples-to-apples, what if we left off Special Ed students and Limited English Proficient students, just compare the rest. Let's also focus on improvement, not level---if a kid improved two grade levels in reading in one year, that's a big victory, so don't say "Yes but he's still not reading at grade level."

The crux here, I think, is that we're applying a sort of business model to education. People want to put the money where it pays off best, and if that's private schools (given a fair comparison) ok, what logically follows? I'm not an economist but IIRC the theory goes that the market will respond. With more student vouchers rolling in, private schools will have more money to attract teachers they want, etc. So why don't they want to be tested?

I googled "proposal vouchers private schools texas" and got nearly 6 million hits. This isn't going away any time soon.
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Old 10-21-2022, 10:54 AM
 
16,193 posts, read 14,701,252 times
Reputation: 14612
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILTXwhatnext View Post
I suffered under NCLB, which of course came from on high. Then you have state level demands and local requirements. It seems like one of those disasters built by a committee.

Nowadays it's STAAR in Texas but I don't think it was at the time. But to illustrate, if you tell me that public schools aren't doing well and these STAAR tests prove it...then naturally if you're giving public funds to private schools, they should be tested with STAAR to prove that they're doing a better job. But proponents of giving vouchers or whatever to private schools didn't want to do that.

I'm indulging in a little fantasy here, but what if they did test private schools who were receiving public funds? And let's be more apples-to-apples, what if we left off Special Ed students and Limited English Proficient students, just compare the rest. Let's also focus on improvement, not level---if a kid improved two grade levels in reading in one year, that's a big victory, so don't say "Yes but he's still not reading at grade level."

The crux here, I think, is that we're applying a sort of business model to education. People want to put the money where it pays off best, and if that's private schools (given a fair comparison) ok, what logically follows? I'm not an economist but IIRC the theory goes that the market will respond. With more student vouchers rolling in, private schools will have more money to attract teachers they want, etc. So why don't they want to be tested?

I googled "proposal vouchers private schools texas" and got nearly 6 million hits. This isn't going away any time soon.

The old Texas test was called TAAKs I think.

IMO all of this is pretty simple. Kids with vouchers who are meritoriously admitted into privates may be "tracked" via SAT/ACT results and maybe ISEE results currently used for high school admissions around here . The better private schools are simply not going to take X,Y and Z kid with a voucher but a 90% chance of washing out.

Forcing a cadre overwhelmingly from the 85th and higher percentiles of achievers to take the STAAR test would be a silly waste of time.
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Old 10-21-2022, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Free State of Florida
19,920 posts, read 7,882,950 times
Reputation: 14696
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20 View Post
I would allow the unions, but eliminate their ability to strike and their ability to collectively bargain. Then, their main purpose would be helping teachers with grievances and lobbying the legislatures. That's how it works in Texas.
Very good post WRM ^. I will modify my opinion to eliminate all teachers unions, to match the TX system you describe in your post ^

If we eliminated the federal dept of ed, each state could have a small leadership group that meets via video-conferencing w/ other states to share best practices, & to standardize testing/curriculums, so when students move from state-to-state, there's some level of consistency.

We do NOT need a massive multi-Billion dollar beauracracy in DC to do this. The DC swamp creatures get power drunk, start dictating to the states, threatening State funding if they don't conform, & increasing their DC budget endlessly. Been there, done that, so why not learn from our mistakes?

Last edited by beach43ofus; 10-21-2022 at 11:15 AM..
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Old 10-21-2022, 11:55 AM
 
10,923 posts, read 7,004,491 times
Reputation: 30240
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I never met a teacher who said they ever looked at the NEA or AFT website. I'm sure some did, but none that I ever knew ever mentioned it.
I agree. But perhaps they should. Teachers need to understand that whether they agree or not, those unions represent teachers to the public and political leaders. Their positions influence education and other policies, programs, and funding. That's what the public sees and cares about.

If teachers don't read what their unions are saying, then they shouldn't be offended when the public rejects those policies.
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