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Old 01-25-2023, 05:46 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
41,657 posts, read 17,252,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Praise for what? No one is "bashing" them but they do have to be told what they've done wrong and how to do it right. But how many times do you have to tell them the same thing? Initiative doesn't mean mind reading but steping out and doing your job without having to be told to do your job.

Seriously, I see a difference based on where they went to school. I know folks on here like to say the degree doesn't matter or the school doesn't matter, but it does matter on the important things at least. I know you like to discount my experience as different somehow, yet I've seen this not just through myself, but watching my friends from college as well as my kid's and their friends and through coworkers over the years.

Two new hires, roughly same age so there's not a generational difference. Essentially the only difference is Pebbles graduated from a well-known Name Brand Tech with a top reputation and BamBam graduated from Upper Lower Somewhere State Tech. Given similar work tasks.

Pebbles: Got it. Goes off & researches the topic. Reviews the standard process and procedures for doing the task. Reads similar reports by others to get a feel for the style and content. Does a draft and has coworkers critique the draft, then presents the draft for review. Takes the comments and produces a final product. That's initiative.

BamBam: Needs the task explained. Doesn't research the topic. Doesn't review standard processes and procedures. Doesn't read similar reports. Doesn't do a draft or get critiques on the draft. Produces a product and delivers it as final that doesn't match the task given. When told the product isn't what was asked for, doesn't take it well. Has to be told to go back and research the topic. Then expects praise for researching the topic. Then has to be told to review standard processes. Then expects praise for that. Then has to be told to read other reports to get a feel for style and content. Then has to have someone explain the example to them. Then expects praise again. Then has to be told to do a draft. Then expects praise again. Then has to be told to get comments. Doesn't like comments and has to have comments explained to them and then told to include the comments. Finally delivers the product again, late, and still lacking, but expects praise for having completed it.

A couple years later Pebbles is team lead, running whole projects while BamBam is still working at the same level and complaining about Pebbles being ahead of him.
You are blaming on the school when it just might be the person themselves.
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Old 01-25-2023, 08:31 PM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,979,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Praise for what?
If praising employees for doing their work causes them to work better, then it’s a free way to boost productivity. Especially if the employee goes the extra mile. But the type of people who get management jobs aren’t hip to that bit of wisdom.

Quote:
No one is "bashing" them but they do have to be told what they've done wrong and how to do it right. But how many times do you have to tell them the same thing?
Agreed. But there is no reason to mention the one thing somebody did wrong years ago when they obviously learned from their mistakes.

Quote:
Initiative doesn't mean mind reading but steping out and doing your job without having to be told to do your job.
A few years ago, we had a project with a major deadline the Friday before Presidents Day, where we were working past midnight every night. I asked if they needed me to work on Presidents Day (a paid holiday at the company I work for), and they said no, since we met the deadline, and we just have to wait now for comments. Some people received e-mails from the client during the weekend. I was not included on those e-mails. I had no way of knowing about them. I was then attacked for “not taking initiative” for not working on Presidents Day. But I did ask and was told no. And I had no way of knowing about those e-mails. If I was cc’d on the e-mails, I would have willingly worked on Presidents Day. But how was I supposed to know?

Quote:
Seriously, I see a difference based on where they went to school. I know folks on here like to say the degree doesn't matter or the school doesn't matter, but it does matter on the important things at least. I know you like to discount my experience as different somehow, yet I've seen this not just through myself, but watching my friends from college as well as my kid's and their friends and through coworkers over the years.
You support colleges that weed people out, which maybe tend to produce doormat employees. I’m guessing you like the doormat employees. I’m guessing you’ll say that I should have just shown up on Presidents Day without asking, since paid holidays are a benefit that “professionals” shouldn’t be taking anyway.

Quote:
Two new hires, roughly same age so there's not a generational difference. Essentially the only difference is Pebbles graduated from a well-known Name Brand Tech with a top reputation and BamBam graduated from Upper Lower Somewhere State Tech. Given similar work tasks.

Pebbles: Got it. Goes off & researches the topic. Reviews the standard process and procedures for doing the task. Reads similar reports by others to get a feel for the style and content. Does a draft and has coworkers critique the draft, then presents the draft for review. Takes the comments and produces a final product. That's initiative.

BamBam: Needs the task explained. Doesn't research the topic. Doesn't review standard processes and procedures. Doesn't read similar reports. Doesn't do a draft or get critiques on the draft. Produces a product and delivers it as final that doesn't match the task given. When told the product isn't what was asked for, doesn't take it well. Has to be told to go back and research the topic. Then expects praise for researching the topic. Then has to be told to review standard processes. Then expects praise for that. Then has to be told to read other reports to get a feel for style and content. Then has to have someone explain the example to them. Then expects praise again. Then has to be told to do a draft. Then expects praise again. Then has to be told to get comments. Doesn't like comments and has to have comments explained to them and then told to include the comments. Finally delivers the product again, late, and still lacking, but expects praise for having completed it.

A couple years later Pebbles is team lead, running whole projects while BamBam is still working at the same level and complaining about Pebbles being ahead of him.
In that example, BamBam just sounds like a lousy employee. Nothing to do with the college he attended.
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Old 01-25-2023, 10:44 PM
 
12,579 posts, read 8,809,297 times
Reputation: 34395
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
You are blaming on the school when it just might be the person themselves.
No doubt there's a lot of individual themself involved. But remember the individual chooses the school. And there is a reason some schools develop a reputation for being top engineering schools and some develop a reputation as party schools, and some have no reputation at all. I'm seeing a consistency over time and multiple graduates of those different schools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
If praising employees for doing their work causes them to work better, then it’s a free way to boost productivity. Especially if the employee goes the extra mile. But the type of people who get management jobs aren’t hip to that bit of wisdom.
.
That's kind of the point. Employees who go the extra mile, like Pebbles in the example, do get praise. To put it in school terms, A level work gets an A. D level work gets a D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Agreed. But there is no reason to mention the one thing somebody did wrong years ago when they obviously learned from their mistakes.
Huh? Where was that mentioned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
You support colleges that weed people out, which maybe tend to produce doormat employees. I’m guessing you like the doormat employees. I’m guessing you’ll say that I should have just shown up on Presidents Day without asking, since paid holidays are a benefit that “professionals” shouldn’t be taking anyway.
Yes, I do support weedout. Not because it produces doormats, but because it weeds them out. Those who go through a process like that and come out the other side have demonstrated something those who haven't been through the process didn't. Your guess that I like doormat employees would be wrong. I want employees who take initiative and can lead. Who are willing to stand up for what they believe and go toe to toe with me or anyone else if they believe in their results. They need to be tough and competent.

As for the paid holiday, I don't know what the project was or what the culture was in your company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
In that example, BamBam just sounds like a lousy employee. Nothing to do with the college he attended.
Actually BamBam (we have quite a few of them by the way), is a pretty average cookbook engineer. Not lousy, nothing bad; just over their head. They can be trained to do a job. But they'll be doing the same job 20 years from now or 40 years from now. With little innovation. In some cases at the same desk.
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Old 01-25-2023, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
24,148 posts, read 9,091,371 times
Reputation: 22548
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I know folks on here like to say the degree doesn't matter or the school doesn't matter, but it does matter on the important things at least.
No, it doesn't for the majority of people. Only 25% of Americans even have a degree, so if you only want the top degree holders, you better be prepared to pay them a premium, wait for them to apply (or reach out to them), and pray they want to work for you after backing up the Brinks truck, which many companies can't and wont do.

Most people are not a doctor or a lawyer, most people are not asked if they graduated at the top of their class, most people are not expected to frame their degree on the wall of their office.

For most people, the degree is a checkmark for employers that will supplement and compliment their job experience. The meat of the resume is the experience. What did you actually do, not where you went to school or what you studied.

Your recruiter didn't go to Harvard, your site lead didn't go to Stanford, your program manager didn't go to UCLA, your project manager didn't go to Princeton, your doctor didn't go to John Hopkins. They went to average schools because the ones who did go to those elite schools are working in Wall Street or Silicon Valley for a premium, not working with you or for any other average employer paying average wages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
You are blaming on the school when it just might be the person themselves.
Bingo. That's like blaming the bank because you took out a high interest loan. No one forced you to do it.

Last edited by Rocko20; 01-25-2023 at 11:55 PM..
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Old 01-26-2023, 12:18 AM
 
Location: moved
13,565 posts, read 9,573,834 times
Reputation: 23301
"Both", for the reason that college is preparation for intellectual-type of careers. That is, a career where the incumbent thinks, writes, does research, calculates things, works creatively and applies fundamental knowledge.

The quintessential example is engineering, where it is nearly impossible to do the job properly without having an engineering degree. Such a degree is both "job training" and an intellectual pursuit. To give a sub-example, take the governing equations of fluid dynamics, necessary for aeronautical engineering and aspects of civil, mechanical and chemical. The derivation of these equations, their meaning and specialized solutions, are intellectually beautiful and profound. This can't really be gleaned from U-tube or hearsay or on the job training. But it's not an idle or effete intellectual pursuit. It's also a very practical skill useful for a career.
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Old 01-26-2023, 08:51 AM
 
12,579 posts, read 8,809,297 times
Reputation: 34395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
No, it doesn't for the majority of people. Only 25% of Americans even have a degree, so if you only want the top degree holders, you better be prepared to pay them a premium, wait for them to apply (or reach out to them), and pray they want to work for you after backing up the Brinks truck, which many companies can't and wont do.

Most people are not a doctor or a lawyer, most people are not asked if they graduated at the top of their class, most people are not expected to frame their degree on the wall of their office.

For most people, the degree is a checkmark for employers that will supplement and compliment their job experience. The meat of the resume is the experience. What did you actually do, not where you went to school or what you studied.

Your recruiter didn't go to Harvard, your site lead didn't go to Stanford, your program manager didn't go to UCLA, your project manager didn't go to Princeton, your doctor didn't go to John Hopkins. They went to average schools because the ones who did go to those elite schools are working in Wall Street or Silicon Valley for a premium, not working with you or for any other average employer paying average wages.
Since we're talking about college graduates here, what the other 75% have or don't have is irrelevant to the discussion. And in the specific examples I gave, those classic "elite" schools the public thinks of are not the schools we're talking about anyway. In Engineering there are places like TAMU and GT and Purdue and others that crank out top flight engineers. And there are 3rd and 4th tier schools that turn out people with engineering degrees but they don't think like engineers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
"Both", for the reason that college is preparation for intellectual-type of careers. That is, a career where the incumbent thinks, writes, does research, calculates things, works creatively and applies fundamental knowledge.

The quintessential example is engineering, where it is nearly impossible to do the job properly without having an engineering degree. Such a degree is both "job training" and an intellectual pursuit. To give a sub-example, take the governing equations of fluid dynamics, necessary for aeronautical engineering and aspects of civil, mechanical and chemical. The derivation of these equations, their meaning and specialized solutions, are intellectually beautiful and profound. This can't really be gleaned from U-tube or hearsay or on the job training. But it's not an idle or effete intellectual pursuit. It's also a very practical skill useful for a career.
I think that's a great example that applies to most STEM and some other fields as well.
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Old 01-26-2023, 09:27 AM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,979,930 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
No doubt there's a lot of individual themself involved. But remember the individual chooses the school.
But sometimes people choose a school based on financial reasons. In my case, I am from a high cost of living area, and the financial aid formulas don't take into account cost of living. So, my parents' income appeared to be too high to get any financial aid, other than loans. But they also didn't have enough money to pay for an expensive college. So I went to a mediocre college that gave me a full academic scholarship. I'm sure you'll say I should have taken a student loan. But since I'm stuck paying my wife's student loans for the rest of my life, it's a good thing I don't also have my own student loan.

Quote:
That's kind of the point. Employees who go the extra mile, like Pebbles in the example, do get praise. To put it in school terms, A level work gets an A. D level work gets a D.
Fair enough. But if BamBam does something right, would it kill you to occasionally praise him? And is it really necessary to mention how he screwed up 10 years earlier?

Quote:
Huh? Where was that mentioned?
You didn't explicitly mention it, but that's how employers tend to operate.

Quote:
Yes, I do support weedout.
And I will never agree with you on that issue. Which is fine, we are both entitled to our opinions.

Quote:
Not because it produces doormats, but because it weeds them out. Those who go through a process like that and come out the other side have demonstrated something those who haven't been through the process didn't. Your guess that I like doormat employees would be wrong.
But the result is that the students who survive are the doormat employees. The ones who willingly show up at 10 PM the Wednesday night before Thanksgiving to an exam, even though the university rules clearly state that no exams are allowed that day after 6 PM, but the professor has tenure. The students who skip their grandmother's funeral to avoid getting a 0 on an exam, even though the university rules clearly state that they cannot penalize a student for missing an exam due to a funeral, but the professor has tenure.

Quote:
I want employees who take initiative and can lead. Who are willing to stand up for what they believe and go toe to toe with me or anyone else if they believe in their results.
But these leaders need people to lead. Not everybody can or should be a leader. Who will the leaders lead if everybody is a leader? That's what managers do not understand.

Quote:
They need to be tough and competent.
By "tough", I'm guessing you mean the ones who don't expect to be rewarded for their effort.

Quote:
As for the paid holiday, I don't know what the project was or what the culture was in your company.
Why should either of that matter? The point is that I was expected to be a mindreader. I was never CC'd on any of the e-mails. I asked if they needed me to work on Presidents Day and they said no. I was told that we will not receive comments until Tuesday at the earliest. It seems you are defending the employer and expecting me to be a mindreader.

Quote:
Actually BamBam (we have quite a few of them by the way), is a pretty average cookbook engineer. Not lousy, nothing bad; just over their head. They can be trained to do a job.
Maybe BamBam was from a high cost of living area, so his parents' income looked high on paper, so he didn't get financial aid, but also had parents who couldn't afford an expensive school. And he knew that his intended career paid modestly, so it would be smart to avoid student loans. Especially if he wanted a 9 to 5 job and wanted to focus on work life balance rather than climbing the corporate ladder. Plus, Pebbles probably had a women in STEM scholarship that you seem to support, while BamBam was not eligible because of the random fact outside his control that he was born male.

I'm sure every company brochure has a picture of Pebbles wearing a hard hat. If this were the private sector, once Pebbles has children, and gains a few pounds, and has to take time off when her kids are sick, and is no longer willing to work 16 hour days, 7 days a week, including holidays, she'll get canned. And she'll be replaced with another underweight doormat. And the cycle repeats.

Quote:
But they'll be doing the same job 20 years from now or 40 years from now. With little innovation. In some cases at the same desk.
Maybe that's what some people want. Maybe they prefer a reliable 9 to 5 job rather than being married to their job, just to be laid off when they are no longer perfect.
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Old 01-26-2023, 09:35 AM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,979,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
No, it doesn't for the majority of people. Only 25% of Americans even have a degree, so if you only want the top degree holders, you better be prepared to pay them a premium, wait for them to apply (or reach out to them), and pray they want to work for you after backing up the Brinks truck, which many companies can't and wont do.

Most people are not a doctor or a lawyer, most people are not asked if they graduated at the top of their class, most people are not expected to frame their degree on the wall of their office.

For most people, the degree is a checkmark for employers that will supplement and compliment their job experience. The meat of the resume is the experience. What did you actually do, not where you went to school or what you studied.
That all fits my experience too.

Quote:
Your recruiter didn't go to Harvard, your site lead didn't go to Stanford, your program manager didn't go to UCLA, your project manager didn't go to Princeton, your doctor didn't go to John Hopkins. They went to average schools because the ones who did go to those elite schools are working in Wall Street or Silicon Valley for a premium, not working with you or for any other average employer paying average wages.
One thing to keep in mind is that some people just want a work-life balance, and are not interested in working on Wall St or Silicon Valley. Those jobs tend to be very long hours, which is not what everybody wants. And, Wall St is very much based on image, and not everybody fits the image that they are looking for. Plus, I realize this is a foreign concept on C-D, but some people want to live near family, and may not have family near Wall St or Silicon Valley. I know you will likely say that such people should not waste their money on elite schools. And you are right. But, most 17 year olds don't know enough about themselves or about life to make an informed decision.

Quote:
Bingo. That's like blaming the bank because you took out a high interest loan. No one forced you to do it.
Yeah. It seems that mangers are never happy with the quality of employees available, but are not willing or able to pay more for the better employees.
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Old 01-26-2023, 09:37 AM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,979,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Since we're talking about college graduates here, what the other 75% have or don't have is irrelevant to the discussion. And in the specific examples I gave, those classic "elite" schools the public thinks of are not the schools we're talking about anyway. In Engineering there are places like TAMU and GT and Purdue and others that crank out top flight engineers. And there are 3rd and 4th tier schools that turn out people with engineering degrees but they don't think like engineers.
Just out of curiosity, does the northeast have any of these schools that produce quality engineers? Or are they only in the south and the west?
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Old 01-26-2023, 10:07 AM
 
9,952 posts, read 6,568,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Just out of curiosity, does the northeast have any of these schools that produce quality engineers? Or are they only in the south and the west?
You’ve admitted on multiple other threads that your particular program just wanted people who could mindlessly follow instructions and did not encourage independent thought. You certainly don’t need to be going to an elite school to have encouragement to think independently. I would say that this distinction exists in many areas. At the better/top tier schools, the focus is on giving students the ability to teach themselves what they need to know. At the lower tier institutions, a lot more hand holding is required.

You have also admitted in multiple threads that you aren’t interested in moving, didn’t go to school outside your home area, etc. One thing that people who are successful tend to have in common is that they are willing to make some sacrifices in order to progress their careers- be it spending slightly more for school, going farther away for a good job opportunity, etc. I think at most top tier schools, there are people already willing to do these things as they are likely not living in the town with the school they attended.
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