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Old 01-27-2023, 08:42 AM
 
9,952 posts, read 6,568,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
But the poster I was responding to said that the top-ranked schools are not the ones that produce the best engineers. I think he may have a bias in favor of colleges from the south and the midwest / west.
What we are talking about now is schools that produce *good* practical engineers, not necessarily the best schools. Other choices in include Rutgers, UMass, UConn, Penn State, Pitt, UMD, and a few of the SUNYs for a selection of public school options. Tnff works (or worked) for the federal government, so the focus is probably more on practical engineering that may not be as much the focus at a place like MIT, Stanford, or CMU, for example.
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Old 01-27-2023, 09:00 AM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,979,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict View Post
What we are talking about now is schools that produce *good* practical engineers, not necessarily the best schools. Other choices in include Rutgers, UMass, UConn, Penn State, Pitt, UMD, and a few of the SUNYs for a selection of public school options.
At the time I was applying to colleges, the only SUNY school that offered civil engineering was Buffalo, which was further than I wanted to go to school. I realize that has changed and now other SUNY schools offer civil engineering.

At the time that I was applying to colleges, Rutgers did not give scholarships to out of state students, and I don't think UMass did either. It's possible that's changed since then.

Quote:
Tnff works (or worked) for the federal government, so the focus is probably more on practical engineering that may not be as much the focus at a place like MIT, Stanford, or CMU, for example.
If anything, I think it's the opposite, since TNFF seems to be focused on research, and seems to think that other people do research, and that other people use the theoretical things they learned in college.
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Old 01-27-2023, 09:23 AM
 
12,579 posts, read 8,809,297 times
Reputation: 34395
Good morning. Here's my response to the longer question set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
But sometimes people choose a school based on financial reasons. In my case, I am from a high cost of living area, and the financial aid formulas don't take into account cost of living. So, my parents' income appeared to be too high to get any financial aid, other than loans. But they also didn't have enough money to pay for an expensive college. So I went to a mediocre college that gave me a full academic scholarship. I'm sure you'll say I should have taken a student loan. But since I'm stuck paying my wife's student loans for the rest of my life, it's a good thing I don't also have my own student loan.
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Yes, sometimes people choose a school for financial reasons. Or their friends go there. Or they like the football team. Or a lot of other nonacademic reasons. Decisions have consequences. And the student then has to take action to mitigate those consequences. Those actions will be different for every student and their unique situation. You say you sent to a mediocre college because it was full scholarship. I can't tell you what to do in you circumstances but can say what we did.

Our oldest also had an opportunity to attend an in-state college for basically free. But we looked at the whole picture -- academics, job outcomes, graduation rates, etc. When looking at that whole picture we decided that "free" was too costly in the long term. That meant a better college out of state which meant loans. But that lead to a good job where she can pay off those loans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Fair enough. But if BamBam does something right, would it kill you to occasionally praise him? And is it really necessary to mention how he screwed up 10 years earlier?

You didn't explicitly mention it, but that's how employers tend to operate.

.
When BamBam does something right, BamBam get the same praise as anyone else. When you add statements like "is it really necessary ..." it implies that I said something that I didn't say. If that's your experience with your employer, doesn't mean that's how I or others operate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
And I will never agree with you on that issue. Which is fine, we are both entitled to our opinions.

But the result is that the students who survive are the doormat employees. The ones who willingly show up at 10 PM the Wednesday night before Thanksgiving to an exam, even though the university rules clearly state that no exams are allowed that day after 6 PM, but the professor has tenure. The students who skip their grandmother's funeral to avoid getting a 0 on an exam, even though the university rules clearly state that they cannot penalize a student for missing an exam due to a funeral, but the professor has tenure.
You keep bringing this up and you weren't even faced with that situation. If it actually happened that way, that's not weedout. That's just a lousy college with lousy professors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
But these leaders need people to lead. Not everybody can or should be a leader. Who will the leaders lead if everybody is a leader? That's what managers do not understand.
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There's more to leadership than where your name is on the organizational chart. And more ways to lead than just giving orders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
By "tough", I'm guessing you mean the ones who don't expect to be rewarded for their effort.
Bad guess. Take on the hard jobs. Do the hard work. Be willing to stand up and defend your results. Be willing to say "no" when corners are cut. Take responsibility. That's one of the things that weed-out separates -- those who are tough and those who aren't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Why should either of that matter? The point is that I was expected to be a mindreader. I was never CC'd on any of the e-mails. I asked if they needed me to work on Presidents Day and they said no. I was told that we will not receive comments until Tuesday at the earliest. It seems you are defending the employer and expecting me to be a mindreader.
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Culture matters because some cultures would be, "sure, Tuesday's fine" and others "We're all going to be in here making sure everything is the best we can make it." I've worked in both kinds of cultures. I'm not defending either, just saying you need to know the culture where you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Maybe BamBam was from a high cost of living area, so his parents' income looked high on paper, so he didn't get financial aid, but also had parents who couldn't afford an expensive school. And he knew that his intended career paid modestly, so it would be smart to avoid student loans. Especially if he wanted a 9 to 5 job and wanted to focus on work life balance rather than climbing the corporate ladder. Plus, Pebbles probably had a women in STEM scholarship that you seem to support, while BamBam was not eligible because of the random fact outside his control that he was born male.
.
Answered in another post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
I'm sure every company brochure has a picture of Pebbles wearing a hard hat. If this were the private sector, once Pebbles has children, and gains a few pounds, and has to take time off when her kids are sick, and is no longer willing to work 16 hour days, 7 days a week, including holidays, she'll get canned. And she'll be replaced with another underweight doormat. And the cycle repeats.
.
Really?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Maybe that's what some people want. Maybe they prefer a reliable 9 to 5 job rather than being married to their job, just to be laid off when they are no longer perfect.
OK. Then they also shouldn't complain when others move ahead of them. When others get the praise and perks they don't. There's nothing wrong with making a conscious decision to do or not do something so long as one accepts the results of their own decision.
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Old 01-27-2023, 10:18 AM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,979,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Good morning. Here's my response to the longer question set.

Yes, sometimes people choose a school for financial reasons. Or their friends go there. Or they like the football team. Or a lot of other nonacademic reasons. Decisions have consequences. And the student then has to take action to mitigate those consequences. Those actions will be different for every student and their unique situation. You say you sent to a mediocre college because it was full scholarship. I can't tell you what to do in you circumstances but can say what we did.
But keep in mind that just about everybody, except you, feels that the college that one attends means absolutely nothing. So by attending a mediocre college and taking a scholarship, it might make me unable to be hired by you, but 99% of employers won't care.

Quote:
Our oldest also had an opportunity to attend an in-state college for basically free. But we looked at the whole picture -- academics, job outcomes, graduation rates, etc. When looking at that whole picture we decided that "free" was too costly in the long term. That meant a better college out of state which meant loans. But that lead to a good job where she can pay off those loans.
That's because she's a woman in STEM, so she gets the "good" jobs regardless of what college she attended.

Quote:
When BamBam does something right, BamBam get the same praise as anyone else. When you add statements like "is it really necessary ..." it implies that I said something that I didn't say. If that's your experience with your employer, doesn't mean that's how I or others operate.
Fair enough.

Quote:
You keep bringing this up and you weren't even faced with that situation. If it actually happened that way, that's not weedout. That's just a lousy college with lousy professors.
Just because it didn't happen to me personally doesn't mean it didn't happen, and doesn't mean it's any less wrong. And the only reason it didn't happen to me was because I APed out of those classes. You and the rest of the posters on this forum clearly look down on me for having APed out of the weedout classes. And it seems they agree with you since they make it harder or impossible for people like me to AP out of those classes.

Quote:
There's more to leadership than where your name is on the organizational chart. And more ways to lead than just giving orders.
"Leadership" is just code for being popular, and being either tall and male or skinny and female.

Quote:
Bad guess. Take on the hard jobs. Do the hard work. Be willing to stand up and defend your results.
But why do that if you won't be rewarded for it?

Quote:
Be willing to say "no" when corners are cut.
And then get fired.

Quote:
Take responsibility. That's one of the things that weed-out separates -- those who are tough and those who aren't.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Quote:
Culture matters because some cultures would be, "sure, Tuesday's fine" and others "We're all going to be in here making sure everything is the best we can make it." I've worked in both kinds of cultures. I'm not defending either, just saying you need to know the culture where you are.
But the point you are making was that I explicitly asked, and they said there would be nothing for me to do on Presidents Day, since they won't get comments until Tuesday at the absolute earliest. I was not included i the e-mails sent over the weekend. I had no way to read them. They were never forwarded to me. How was I supposed to know?

Quote:
Answered in another post.
You ignored part of it, but it doesn't matter.

Quote:
Really?
That's how employers treat employees.

Quote:
OK. Then they also shouldn't complain when others move ahead of them.
But employers need to respect employees who make such choices.

Quote:
When others get the praise and perks they don't.
I disagree. It costs nothing to praise an employee. And you tend to lose perks as you move up the ladder.

Quote:
There's nothing wrong with making a conscious decision to do or not do something so long as one accepts the results of their own decision.
Ok.
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Old 01-27-2023, 10:18 AM
 
12,579 posts, read 8,809,297 times
Reputation: 34395
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
I'd consider both of those to be midwest.
I also consider that to be midwest.
All of those are extremely expensive, and not viable options for a middle class student from a high cost of living area.
You asked for examples so I gave some examples. Didn't say it was an exhaustive list. Perhaps I should have added USMA. Just a train ride up the Hudson from you. Free tuition and room and board. Guaranteed good job at the end. Instructors who really want you to succeed. Of course the weed-out is pretty tough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
You seriously never met people who chose a particular college due to financial reasons? Seriously? I'm guessing that's because you are from a low cost of living area, so the people you know are not the ones who are penalized by the financial aid formula.

The range of colleges that I considered were colleges that were too far to go home for a regular weekend, but close enough to go home for a 3 day or longer weekend. Being from the northeast, there are a lot of colleges in that zone. But it seems that none of them meet your standards other than the ultra-expensive ones that you listed above. I guess you consider that to be easy and close to home. I don't think you can fault an 18 year old who wants to live close enough to be able to spend an occasional 3 day weekend with their family.
Yes, I've known people who choose financial reasons. I've lived in quite a few places and worked with folks from all over and from all sorts of colleges. Not sure what you mean by "none of them meet my standards" when I'd just be random guessing which colleges you're talking about. I have no idea what college you attended. You're the one who's said it's mediocre on several occasions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict View Post
What we are talking about now is schools that produce *good* practical engineers, not necessarily the best schools. Other choices in include Rutgers, UMass, UConn, Penn State, Pitt, UMD, and a few of the SUNYs for a selection of public school options. Tnff works (or worked) for the federal government, so the focus is probably more on practical engineering that may not be as much the focus at a place like MIT, Stanford, or CMU, for example.
Thank you once again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
If anything, I think it's the opposite, since TNFF seems to be focused on research, and seems to think that other people do research, and that other people use the theoretical things they learned in college.
You make a lot of assumptions without the underlying data. Yes, my mission is research. To accomplish that mission is an army of skilled craft and engineers of all types -- mechanical, electrical, etc. They have to design and build the facilities. There's no textbook on how to do that. They have to figure it out.
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Old 01-27-2023, 10:36 AM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,979,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
You asked for examples so I gave some examples. Didn't say it was an exhaustive list. Perhaps I should have added USMA. Just a train ride up the Hudson from you. Free tuition and room and board. Guaranteed good job at the end. Instructors who really want you to succeed. Of course the weed-out is pretty tough.
Aside from being almost impossible to get into, and only accepting varsity athletes (which I'm not), it requires a military commitment, which means giving up your freedom, and being willing to die in places such as Iraq. No thanks.

Quote:
Yes, I've known people who choose financial reasons. I've lived in quite a few places and worked with folks from all over and from all sorts of colleges. Not sure what you mean by "none of them meet my standards" when I'd just be random guessing which colleges you're talking about. I have no idea what college you attended. You're the one who's said it's mediocre on several occasions.
I'm not posting it publicly since I've had my privacy invaded by several posters on this forum. If you send me a DM I can tell you. But I'm fairly sure I told you, and you said that you would never have hired anybody from that college.

Quote:
You make a lot of assumptions without the underlying data. Yes, my mission is research. To accomplish that mission is an army of skilled craft and engineers of all types -- mechanical, electrical, etc. They have to design and build the facilities. There's no textbook on how to do that. They have to figure it out.
Ok, but that's not most employers.
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Old 01-27-2023, 11:22 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
41,657 posts, read 17,252,808 times
Reputation: 34154
Looks like you folks consider college as career prep and more importantly which college you went to for that career prep.

Is that because everyone is encouraged to go to college these days ?

I would add though that I think working in research requires a different type of thinking.
I worked with many over my career, both private sector and public sector.
I prefer the implementation side though.

Last edited by TMSRetired; 01-27-2023 at 11:32 AM..
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Old 01-27-2023, 04:08 PM
 
12,579 posts, read 8,809,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
But keep in mind that just about everybody, except you, feels that the college that one attends means absolutely nothing. So by attending a mediocre college and taking a scholarship, it might make me unable to be hired by you, but 99% of employers won't care.
Ok.
I agree that some people feel that way, and that some employers won't care. And also, that a lot of how much it matters and how much they care depends on the job at hand. But being that this subset discussion is focused on engineering and engineering related degrees and jobs; and acknowledging that "engineering" isn't a singular field, many of the better employers will care for the jobs within the company when they have a choice. There are no guarantees in life, but getting the best degree you can from the best college you can, helps tip the scales in your favor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
That's because she's a woman in STEM, so she gets the "good" jobs regardless of what college she attended.
.
Or perhaps she's just good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Just because it didn't happen to me personally doesn't mean it didn't happen, and doesn't mean it's any less wrong. And the only reason it didn't happen to me was because I APed out of those classes. You and the rest of the posters on this forum clearly look down on me for having APed out of the weedout classes. And it seems they agree with you since they make it harder or impossible for people like me to AP out of those classes.
.
No one looks down on you for having APed out of the weedout classes. Heck, unless you tell us, we don't know what classes you took or what you did or didn't AP out of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
"Leadership" is just code for being popular, and being either tall and male or skinny and female.
.
Perhaps in middle school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
But why do that if you won't be rewarded for it?
And then get fired.
Some things are about right, not reward. There's nothing worth getting fired over? I've put my tail on the line a few times over the years. I'm sure Allan Mcdonald thought it was worth it to stand up to his management.

For the rest, I think you missed the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Aside from being almost impossible to get into, and only accepting varsity athletes (which I'm not), it requires a military commitment, which means giving up your freedom, and being willing to die in places such as Iraq. No thanks.
.
You also missed that point as well.
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Old 01-27-2023, 05:10 PM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,979,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I agree that some people feel that way, and that some employers won't care. And also, that a lot of how much it matters and how much they care depends on the job at hand. But being that this subset discussion is focused on engineering and engineering related degrees and jobs; and acknowledging that "engineering" isn't a singular field, many of the better employers will care for the jobs within the company when they have a choice. There are no guarantees in life, but getting the best degree you can from the best college you can, helps tip the scales in your favor.
I think that one needs to do serious soul searching based on career goals and life goals as to whether or not it’s worth going into debt for a “better” college. The problem is, no 17 year old know enough about himself/herself or the world to make that decision.

Quote:
Or perhaps she's just good.
She’d be good regardless of college attended.

Quote:
Some things are about right, not reward. There's nothing worth getting fired over? I've put my tail on the line a few times over the years. I'm sure Allan Mcdonald thought it was worth it to stand up to his management.
Fair enough.

Quote:
For the rest, I think you missed the point.
Mind explaining it it a way that somebody like myself who graduated from a mediocre college can understand?

Quote:
You also missed that point as well.
Again, mind explaining it in a way that somebody like myself who graduated from a mediocre college can understand?
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Old 01-28-2023, 08:49 AM
 
12,579 posts, read 8,809,297 times
Reputation: 34395
I really hate CD's lack of tracking quotes when trying to answer multi questions but you asked for more detail on these points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Culture matters because some cultures would be, "sure, Tuesday's fine" and others "We're all going to be in here making sure everything is the best we can make it." I've worked in both kinds of cultures. I'm not defending either, just saying you need to know the culture where you are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
But the point you are making was that I explicitly asked, and they said there would be nothing for me to do on Presidents Day, since they won't get comments until Tuesday at the absolute earliest. I was not included i the e-mails sent over the weekend. I had no way to read them. They were never forwarded to me. How was I supposed to know?
.
You should know the culture of the organization you're in. Did others go in? How did they know? How critical was this item to your organization? How critical was your input to it? It goes back to what I've tried to point out earlier, but you dismiss -- initiative. Sometimes you take the initiative and make a decision without being told explicitly. But I can't know the culture of your organization to say one way or the other on this specific instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Answered in another post.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
You ignored part of it, but it doesn't matter.
What did my answer ignore? You had posted a list of guesses:
Maybe BamBam was from a high cost of living area, so his parents' income looked high on paper, so he didn't get financial aid, but also had parents who couldn't afford an expensive school. And he knew that his intended career paid modestly, so it would be smart to avoid student loans. Especially if he wanted a 9 to 5 job and wanted to focus on work life balance rather than climbing the corporate ladder. Plus, Pebbles probably had a women in STEM scholarship that you seem to support, while BamBam was not eligible because of the random fact outside his control that he was born male.

I answered that none of these were applicable because I knew the BamBams and why they choose what they choose. You just tossed random things out there rather than accept the situation as is. I did choose to ignore your sexist comment you based solely on the assumed gender of the Flintstone's cover names I used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Really?
.
I answered "really" because you had made this sexist statement that I couldn't believe you made:
I'm sure every company brochure has a picture of Pebbles wearing a hard hat. If this were the private sector, once Pebbles has children, and gains a few pounds, and has to take time off when her kids are sick, and is no longer willing to work 16 hour days, 7 days a week, including holidays, she'll get canned. And she'll be replaced with another underweight doormat. And the cycle repeats.

and finally, I made this comment,
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
You asked for examples so I gave some examples. Didn't say it was an exhaustive list. Perhaps I should have added USMA. Just a train ride up the Hudson from you. Free tuition and room and board. Guaranteed good job at the end. Instructors who really want you to succeed. Of course the weed-out is pretty tough.
and your response was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Aside from being almost impossible to get into, and only accepting varsity athletes (which I'm not), it requires a military commitment, which means giving up your freedom, and being willing to die in places such as Iraq. No thanks.
The point was about being challenged. Have you been really challenged academically? Did you ever take a risk to get the reward? Your post history is one of avoiding challenges.
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