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Old 01-28-2023, 11:46 AM
 
12,101 posts, read 17,082,144 times
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I honestly see college as more of a 'life carrot' for civilians.

Like, we're all trying to find purpose and things to accomplish in life and college is a big, easy carrot.

You get good grades in high school, do well on a fairly standardized test, and you get into a good college, and you can celebrate. The process is quite fair relative to other things in life.

Like I see kids on Youtube celebrating getting into the school of their choice. Good for them. I think the reality of what going to that school means in terms of life impact is much less than they think.

Other carrots are like having kids, buying a house, etc.

Becoming Senior Vice President of 'some company'... but is that really what you think it is?
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Old 01-28-2023, 07:07 PM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,039,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I really hate CD's lack of tracking quotes when trying to answer multi questions but you asked for more detail on these points.

You should know the culture of the organization you're in. Did others go in? How did they know?
The others were cc’d on the e-mails so they knew to come in on Presidents Day. I was not cc’d on those e-mails for whatever reason. The manager of the project later admitted that it was his fault he forgot to cc me, and that he felt bad that I got in trouble for it.

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How critical was this item to your organization?
Extremely critical. Although I normally would not work a holiday, this is a case where I would have since it was a minor holiday and an important project with a tight deadline outside our client’s control.

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How critical was your input to it?
Not very critical. They were just looking for warm bodies.

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It goes back to what I've tried to point out earlier, but you dismiss -- initiative. Sometimes you take the initiative and make a decision without being told explicitly. But I can't know the culture of your organization to say one way or the other on this specific instance.
In this case, initiative was mind reading.

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What did my answer ignore? You had posted a list of guesses:
Maybe BamBam was from a high cost of living area, so his parents' income looked high on paper, so he didn't get financial aid, but also had parents who couldn't afford an expensive school. And he knew that his intended career paid modestly, so it would be smart to avoid student loans. Especially if he wanted a 9 to 5 job and wanted to focus on work life balance rather than climbing the corporate ladder. Plus, Pebbles probably had a women in STEM scholarship that you seem to support, while BamBam was not eligible because of the random fact outside his control that he was born male.

I answered that none of these were applicable because I knew the BamBams and why they choose what they choose. You just tossed random things out there rather than accept the situation as is. I did choose to ignore your sexist comment you based solely on the assumed gender of the Flintstone's cover names I used.
From what I remember on the Flintsones, Pebbles was a girl, BamBam was a boy. Of course, you use the female name for the positive example and the male name for the negative example. You would have been better off using either 2 male names and 2 female names or, better yet, 2 unisex names.

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I answered "really" because you had made this sexist statement that I couldn't believe you made:
I'm sure every company brochure has a picture of Pebbles wearing a hard hat. If this were the private sector, once Pebbles has children, and gains a few pounds, and has to take time off when her kids are sick, and is no longer willing to work 16 hour days, 7 days a week, including holidays, she'll get canned. And she'll be replaced with another underweight doormat. And the cycle repeats.
You are shooting the messenger.

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and finally, I made this comment,

and your response was:

The point was about being challenged. Have you been really challenged academically? Did you ever take a risk to get the reward? Your post history is one of avoiding challenges.
I was challenged academically in grad school at MIT. In college, I had to minimize my risk to keep my scholarship.

You ignored the most important point that I made: that one has to do soul searching, based on career and life goals, whether or not going into debt for an expensive college is with it for you, but that nobody is mature enough to make that choice at 17. In my case, I would not have benefitted from going into debt, so I feel I made the right choice. Somebody with different life and career goals may make a different choice.

Since you will likely mention West Point again, keep in mind that you will not incur a financial debt, but you incur a military service debt that must be paid off. So you’re still going into debt of a different type.
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Old 01-28-2023, 10:33 PM
 
12,831 posts, read 9,025,507 times
Reputation: 34873
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
The others were cc’d on the e-mails so they knew to come in on Presidents Day. I was not cc’d on those e-mails for whatever reason. The manager of the project later admitted that it was his fault he forgot to cc me, and that he felt bad that I got in trouble for it.

Extremely critical. Although I normally would not work a holiday, this is a case where I would have since it was a minor holiday and an important project with a tight deadline outside our client’s control.

Not very critical. They were just looking for warm bodies.

In this case, initiative was mind reading.
Ok, sounds like your input wasn't needed so you didn't need to be there. No biggie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
From what I remember on the Flintsones, Pebbles was a girl, BamBam was a boy. Of course, you use the female name for the positive example and the male name for the negative example. You would have been better off using either 2 male names and 2 female names or, better yet, 2 unisex names.
You put way more thought into that than I did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
You are shooting the messenger.
.
That's a bias, not a message.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
I was challenged academically in grad school at MIT. In college, I had to minimize my risk to keep my scholarship.

You ignored the most important point that I made: that one has to do soul searching, based on career and life goals, whether or not going into debt for an expensive college is with it for you, but that nobody is mature enough to make that choice at 17. In my case, I would not have benefitted from going into debt, so I feel I made the right choice. Somebody with different life and career goals may make a different choice.
Yet you so often seem unhappy with your college. At least that's how it comes across in you posts. I can't recall that you shown any excitement about either your college or about MIT.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Since you will likely mention West Point again, keep in mind that you will not incur a financial debt, but you incur a military service debt that must be paid off. So you’re still going into debt of a different type.
I am well aware of the service commitment. But the reward is pretty big in terms of ROI.
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Old 01-29-2023, 09:49 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,039,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I am well aware of the service commitment. But the reward is pretty big in terms of ROI.
But not if you get killed in service. In my case, if I had graduated from West Point, given when I graduated, I likely would have ended up in Iraq. Plus, it’s a lifestyle that not everybody wants. I would say West Point would be a good choice for some students, and a poor choice for other students. It’s not a lifestyle that ever would have worked for me. Plus, they only accept varsity athletes. And even then, it’s very difficult to get into.
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Old 01-29-2023, 10:10 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,183 posts, read 107,774,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Praise for what? No one is "bashing" them but they do have to be told what they've done wrong and how to do it right. But how many times do you have to tell them the same thing? Initiative doesn't mean mind reading but steping out and doing your job without having to be told to do your job.
So what do you do, OP? What does your company do with hires that are helpless and lost at their jobs? How long do they last? Do they make it through the 6-month probationary period? Does anyone sit them down and have a talk with them, about how they're expected to figure out on their own how to plan and execute an assigned task?
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Old 01-29-2023, 10:18 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,183 posts, read 107,774,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
You are blaming on the school when it just might be the person themselves.
No, I think the point is, that the bright, self-motivated go-getter kids are the ones that get accepted to MIT and its peer schools, while the ones who were helicopter-parented, with mom or dad helping them with homework every step of the way are the ones who know MIT et al would be "too hard", so they apply elsewhere.

IOW, MIT & peers get the cream of the crop. That's what the hiring managers are seeing. They're also seeing what "not the cream of the crop" looks like as well. The latter aren't able to rise to what (according to the OP) used to be the normal expectations of the job. They take one small step toward addressing a complex task (well within their educational background), and come back wanting a cookie for their effort, and direction on what to do next.
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Old 01-29-2023, 10:36 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,054 posts, read 18,216,027 times
Reputation: 34926
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
So what do you do, OP? What does your company do with hires that are helpless and lost at their jobs? How long do they last? Do they make it through the 6-month probationary period? Does anyone sit them down and have a talk with them, about how they're expected to figure out on their own how to plan and execute an assigned task?
How much "initiative" would one expect from a new hire just out of college ?

I remember when I got hired out of college I felt like a small fish in the big pond.
I was overwhelmed and not feeling very confident. Thankfully my company assigned mentors to all new hires.
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Old 01-29-2023, 10:38 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,054 posts, read 18,216,027 times
Reputation: 34926
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
No, I think the point is, that the bright, self-motivated go-getter kids are the ones that get accepted to MIT and its peer schools, while the ones who were helicopter-parented, with mom or dad helping them with homework every step of the way are the ones who know MIT et al would be "too hard", so they apply elsewhere.

IOW, MIT & peers get the cream of the crop. That's what the hiring managers are seeing. They're also seeing what "not the cream of the crop" looks like as well. The latter aren't able to rise to what (according to the OP) used to be the normal expectations of the job. They take one small step toward addressing a complex task (well within their educational background), and come back wanting a cookie for their effort, and direction on what to do next.
Well if you know all that then why even bother interviewing/hiring non MIT graduates ?
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Old 01-29-2023, 12:08 PM
 
12,831 posts, read 9,025,507 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
But not if you get killed in service. In my case, if I had graduated from West Point, given when I graduated, I likely would have ended up in Iraq. Plus, it’s a lifestyle that not everybody wants. I would say West Point would be a good choice for some students, and a poor choice for other students. It’s not a lifestyle that ever would have worked for me. Plus, they only accept varsity athletes. And even then, it’s very difficult to get into.
Yes, I know. It was an example to make a point (no pun intended). I could have as easily picked USNA, USAFA, USCGA, USMMA, or even places like Citadel, VMI, TAMU, etc that don't have a service commitment. I only picked USMA because of location.

Let's do "what if?" What if you hadn't AP'd out of that engineering class and had to take the exam the night before Thanksgiving? What would you have done with your scholarship at risk?
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Old 01-29-2023, 12:36 PM
 
12,831 posts, read 9,025,507 times
Reputation: 34873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
So what do you do, OP? What does your company do with hires that are helpless and lost at their jobs? How long do they last? Do they make it through the 6-month probationary period? Does anyone sit them down and have a talk with them, about how they're expected to figure out on their own how to plan and execute an assigned task?
Yes, they get training and help and do overs and all that. Most make it through probationary period, though to be honest not all should. We had some where the supervisor wanted to let them go, but higher management wanted to give them a 2nd chance, and a 3rd, and a ..... (Side bar: That's actually been studied at the large scale level and found the probationary period isn't often used as it should be).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
No, I think the point is, that the bright, self-motivated go-getter kids are the ones that get accepted to MIT and its peer schools, while the ones who were helicopter-parented, with mom or dad helping them with homework every step of the way are the ones who know MIT et al would be "too hard", so they apply elsewhere.

IOW, MIT & peers get the cream of the crop. That's what the hiring managers are seeing. They're also seeing what "not the cream of the crop" looks like as well. The latter aren't able to rise to what (according to the OP) used to be the normal expectations of the job. They take one small step toward addressing a complex task (well within their educational background), and come back wanting a cookie for their effort, and direction on what to do next.
(Side note, I think saying "MIT" (or other terms like Ivies, or Harvard) makes people focus only on those few well known schools when the issue is much broader than that. ))

Thank Ruth, I think you very much get the point. On to your specific comments, I agree it is the bright, self motivated who attend these schools (again, not just limited to MIT). Yes, what I'm seeing is exactly what you're saying that the lower tier graduates can't rise to the level expected and need constant direction. And I do place a lot of that on how they are taught in school today. Do a step; wait for praise from the teacher before moving on. While I don't agree with Stealth Rabbit on some things, I do agree with his point on this, that our education system trains students to be passive and wait on direction.

I see graduates from R1, R2 and 3rd and 4th tier colleges. I know people don't like to hear this, but there is a difference between the graduates. I can see it in the resumes. I see it in the interviews. And in how they approach their jobs. We see it in summer interns. As an example, we had one from a lower tier school a few years ago who, after comparing himself to the other interns from other schools, said directly to me that it made him realize just how much his college had NOT prepared him compared to his peers.
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