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Old 03-22-2023, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Raleigh
13,707 posts, read 12,418,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treffer View Post
Many seminaries deliberately choose not to be accredited, mainly for two reasons:

  1. Accreditation is an expensive exercise and the cost of what is a voluntary process is often passed on to students. Potential clergy may not be in the position to have large and wealthy congregations, so an expensive seminary education may create an obstacle for a person who feels a Godly call to minister.
  2. The seminaries may not want outsiders to become involved in their operations for fear that accreditors may push an agenda that interferes with their doctrinal beliefs.


At least half the states in the US allow for them to be legally registered but receive a religious exemption from the full requirements of higher learning in that State. So despite their exemptions, the institutions are still "legal". And many of such seminaries may subject themselves to private non-profit third-party regulators who more clearly respect their doctrinal positions.



I'm trying to find an answer to the legal issues surrounding the listing of such degrees on resumes and the use of any pre-nominals such as "Dr" for graduates of such institutions. I fully understand that an unaccredited degree will likely not lead to transferability to an accredited university and that some employers may require accredited degrees. However, in many cases, church employers may not care or may prefer a certain seminary (even though it may be unaccredited) for their hires.



My question is more a general one: Apart from the limitations above, are there any legal directions for whether such degrees can be listed on a resume or an employer's website, etc., and whether it would be legal to use any title the degree would normally carry? After all, they would not be claiming to be medical doctors but rather doctors of theology (and that is very different according to doctrinal beliefs).



I think too often people unfairly read unaccredited as "bogus" and ascribe nefarious motives to graduates of such institutions. Many of these seminaries require work at least of equal worth as accredited institutions and have faculty with accredited degrees, yet they still get called "degree mills" in the press.



What are the legal implications?
IANAL but I don't think there are any legal implications at all in the sense you mention since none of these confer anything meaningful in a tangible sense. IE, they don't confer anything on the bearer of the degree that will allow them to damage someone else. If I send off $397 for a D. Min degree, what does that allow me to do? Very little. In fact theres nothing I could do with it that I couldn't do without it.
For there to be a legal implication you'd have to prove that its presented as something it isn't.

The legal implications would/should largely be on the part of the diploma mill, and the ones damaged are the ones that paid (even 'too good to be true' prices) for degrees that aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
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Old 03-22-2023, 09:46 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
24,097 posts, read 32,448,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treffer View Post
In society and especially religion, the more counter-cultural you are (and churches are supposed to be) the more you open yourself up to criticism. If the school is not accredited there's enough room for people to question that "you (actually) did the (appropriate) work to get it".
Seminaries are, as you have said; a whole other kettle of fish. You seem to be wondering if your degree will be "respected" or not. It will be respected by people who believe as you do. People who don't believe as you do, are not going to have respect for it. Atheists will think you are studying something that doesn't exist.

An acquaintance of mine obtained her master's degree at an unaccredited seminary. Her pastor suggested it. She has a Bachelor's in Social Work, and for her church, her BS in social work along with a master's in Christian Counseling, was enough for her to obtain a job as a mental health and grief counselor at her church. She had a job waiting for her.

I looked at it, and the curriculum was very bible focused. There was work involved. I feel comfortable calling her an Evangelical Christian counselor, and in as much as I agree with very little taught at that school, she didn't hand them $4000 and get a diploma in the mail. She worked for it.

Since there was academic, religious and biblical study involved, and it took her 15 months of study, this was not a "diploma mill".
She obtained an MA from an unaccredited college. She is going on for her master's at the same school. In her world, these degrees are valid, and perhaps held in higher esteem than a degree from a moderate or progressive seminary.

This isn't a medical degree. It's not even a drivers license. She can teach online at this seminary, and perhaps at others like it. She could not teach at a community college, which many people with masters degrees do.

Why do you want this degree? Are most of your family and those in your circle of friends members of this type of religion? What do you expect to do with this?

Why are you choosing to attend an unaccredited school? I know most are less money. Is there a reason other than that?

In short, there are no illegal degrees, especially in religion. The problem would come if you wanted to teach in a secular setting.
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Old 03-22-2023, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Raleigh
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Originally Posted by thinkalot View Post
I don't get the excuse about their doctrinal beliefs. That is more of an agenda than any accrediting organization would have. Only learning about the sect of one faith isn't an education in theology. I don't think a divinity degree from an Ivy would be so limited.
Yeah, that's a good point. The Seminary that educates most of the priests in the Archidocese of Chicago is accredited by the same body that accredits Harvard Divinity School and a bunch of regional religious seminaries (and a lot of ones many haven't heard of like St. Tikhons Orthodox Theological Seminary or Academy for Jewish Religion).

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkalot View Post
I will continue to call unaccredited schools diploma mills.
Unaccredited is unaccredited. A diploma mill is almost always unaccredited or accredited by an accreditation mill (same thing.).

But there are unaccredited schools that aren't diploma mills, typically very religious in their bent.
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Old 03-22-2023, 10:30 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
24,097 posts, read 32,448,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalUID View Post
The law doesn't protect your typical BA/BS from a traditional university, let alone a religious institution or seminary. All accreditation indicates is that a program meets a set of rigorous standards of quality agreed upon by that particular accreditor. It's completely up to your potential employer or customers as to whether that accreditation means anything to them. For some it might, and for others it may not.

THIS ^^^. An accredited degree is not a "license". Even a degree in nursing, does not give one the ability to begin practicing as a nurse. They must first pass the N-CLEX RN.

There are no illegal degrees, especially in theology. No one will arrest you for teaching incorrect doctrine - or for having an unaccredited degree.

If a person has a degree from an unaccredited college, they may find that they are not eligible for certain jobs, or promotions. That's about it.
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Old 03-22-2023, 02:32 PM
 
87 posts, read 66,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Why do you want this degree? Are most of your family and those in your circle of friends members of this type of religion? What do you expect to do with this?

Why are you choosing to attend an unaccredited school? I know most are less money. Is there a reason other than that?

In short, there are no illegal degrees, especially in religion. The problem would come if you wanted to teach in a secular setting.

I don't want the degree. I have a friend who is going to be immigrating to the US from India. The Indian government has a very strict separation between church and state - most of their major universities dont award the BTh/MDiv/DTh. The Indian government allows seminaries to operate provided they only offer theology degrees and they may not call themselves "universities". Because of this separation of powers, the University Grants Commission (the national accreditor) doesn't accredit any purely religious schools or seminaries - so all their degrees are intentionally unaccredited, for similar reasons many of our schools claim here.


He is a minister and will likely preach, teach and write in his field for a living. But you can understand his concern coming from an environment where everybody was unaccredited to one where many ministers do hold accredited degrees. Of course, he's going to want to know just what he can and cannot do with his DDiv once he gets here. I've joked with him that it would be so much easier to integrate into US culture if he were a yogi or did crystal therapy.

I'm just trying to be as knowledgeable about this stuff so I can help him integrate and avoid running into problems with the law.
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Old 03-22-2023, 03:06 PM
 
87 posts, read 66,129 times
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Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I wouldn't attend a diploma mill. If I were interested in a divinity degree, I would attend a school properly organized and recognized as such so there would be no question about the degree. There are many recognized and run by the major religious affiliations and many that are part of well-known universities.

Unfortunately, you're more than likely to come out of those institutions believing in "***** theology" or in critical race theory or other woke stuff. Many people who go to the Ivy's to earn an MDiv lose their faith in those institutions.
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Old 03-22-2023, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Where clams are a pizza topping
524 posts, read 245,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treffer View Post
I don't want the degree. I have a friend who is going to be immigrating to the US from India. The Indian government has a very strict separation between church and state - most of their major universities dont award the BTh/MDiv/DTh. The Indian government allows seminaries to operate provided they only offer theology degrees and they may not call themselves "universities". Because of this separation of powers, the University Grants Commission (the national accreditor) doesn't accredit any purely religious schools or seminaries - so all their degrees are intentionally unaccredited, for similar reasons many of our schools claim here.


He is a minister and will likely preach, teach and write in his field for a living. But you can understand his concern coming from an environment where everybody was unaccredited to one where many ministers do hold accredited degrees. Of course, he's going to want to know just what he can and cannot do with his DDiv once he gets here. I've joked with him that it would be so much easier to integrate into US culture if he were a yogi or did crystal therapy.

I'm just trying to be as knowledgeable about this stuff so I can help him integrate and avoid running into problems with the law.
LOL, he’ll be fine. He may not get very far in a “high church” denomination, but one thing the USA has no shortage of is the independent and evangelical churches that aren’t too concerned about where the degree is awarded from.
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Old 03-23-2023, 02:40 PM
 
7,324 posts, read 4,118,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treffer View Post
The Indian government allows seminaries to operate provided they only offer theology degrees and they may not call themselves "universities".

Because of this separation of powers, the University Grants Commission (the national accreditor) doesn't accredit any purely religious schools or seminaries - so all their degrees are intentionally unaccredited, for similar reasons many of our schools claim here.

He is a minister and will likely preach, teach and write in his field for a living. But you can understand his concern coming from an environment where everybody was unaccredited to one where many ministers do hold accredited degrees. Of course, he's going to want to know just what he can and cannot do with his DDV once he gets here. I've joked with him that it would be so much easier to integrate into US culture if he were a yogi or did crystal therapy.

I'm just trying to be as knowledgeable about this stuff so I can help him integrate and avoid running into problems with the law.

Quote:
Northwestern Theological Seminary is a member in good standing with the IACEA. The International Association for Christian Educational Accountability is a Christian alternative to secular accreditation and as such, is not controlled or dictated to by the U.S. Dept. of Education thus allowing Biblical positions to be supported in areas such as Abortion, Same Sex Marriage etc. Educational Accountability and Accreditation are interchangeable.

Concerning seminary accreditation or educational accountability; the value of any accredited university, accredited bible college or educationally accountable online seminary degree is subjective, depending on the amount of work that went into earning it, the student’s attitude and aptitude, and external circumstances related to the school itself or to the graduate’s working world.

You should be aware that the vast majority of Christian Private Schools, Bible Colleges and Seminaries elect not to be governed by the U.S. Department of Education and do not seek Regional Accreditation, which is more common among Secular Colleges and Universities. Christian Educational Ministries are automatically exempt from the dictates of both the Government and secular accreditation agencies.
NTS Accreditation

Quote:
If your sole purpose of needing an education is for the Gospel ministry or a related field within Christian ministry, secular accreditation is not necessary or required. All Christian churches and ministries generally accept quality Christian education regardless of which accreditation group (if any) the school is with.
https://www.cbcs-degree.com/accreditation

So it seems that it all depends on his church membership. He can't call himself a Doctor of Divinity. He can't act as a social worker or a marriage counselor.

I'm not sure what he's telling you is true. It seems that India has religion major/degrees and programs.

Quote:
Entrance Exams for Studying Religious Studies

Religious Studies can be pursued at the Bachelor level under the BA (Bachelor of Arts) degree.
Students can pursue their BA Religious Studies in certain specialisations of their choice such as BA in Buddhist Studies, BA in Christian Studies, BA in Theology and Religious Studies, and many others.
Admissions to these courses are conducted based on the merit of the student.

At the postgraduate level, students can pursue either a Master’s degree in Religious Studies or a Master of Philosophy in the same. These courses, once again, can be undertaken with certain specialisations such as MA Christian Studies, M.Phil. in Guru Granth Sahib Studies, MA in Comparative Studies, and MA in Religious Studies. Certain institutes conduct entrance exams for admissions to these courses, whereas most simply grant admission based on merit.

Some of the top PG entrance examinations conducted for Religious Studies are:

Guru Nanak Dev University

The Department of Guru Nanak Studies in the Guru Nanak Dev University conducts its entrance exams for aspirants who wish to pursue either an MA or an MPhil in Religious Studies. All students who have graduated in a relevant discipline are eligible to sit for this entrance exam, after which the department shortlists candidates for admission.

Jamia Millia Islamia Entrance Exam

JMI (Jamia Millia Islamia) conducts entrance exams for students who wish to pursue a Master of Arts in Comparative Religion. The exam is conducted yearly in a written format for all aspirants who have completed their graduation in a relevant discipline.

Scope of Religious Studies in India and Abroad

Candidates who wish to pursue a career in Religious Studies have various options to choose from. After graduation, while some apply for jobs, the popular choice among candidates is generally to pursue higher studies or research opportunities.

There are several higher education options available to these candidates:

Bachelor of Education (B.Ed.)- Aspirants who wish to teach in schools can enrol in a B.Ed. course to acquire the necessary insights for teaching in private and public schools, at different levels.

Master of Philosophy (M.Phil.)- After graduation, students can pursue an M.Phil. in Religious Studies. This is a more research-oriented course which will equip them with a more in-depth, thorough knowledge of the subject. Several opportunities for academic research are available to M.Phil. graduates.

Doctor of Philosophy (PhD)- Aspirants who wish to gain a deeper insight into the subject while simultaneously hoping for massive employment scope in the same can choose to pursue a PhD in the subject. Candidates holding a PhD degree are awarded the “Doctor” prefix and receive plenty of employment opportunities with higher pay.

Competitive Exams- Upon completing their graduation, students can also sit for career-specific competitive exams such as UPSC, IFS for government jobs.
https://www.careers360.com/courses/r...studies-course
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Old 03-23-2023, 02:46 PM
 
10,717 posts, read 5,655,419 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
It isn't broken and it doesn't need fixing.

These degrees generally don't confer any level of professional priveleges.

They don't qualify one to practice nursing or medicine or law or physical therapy.

Generally, a bachelors degree, even in nursing or accounting, doesn't qualify one to practice unless they pass the licensing exam anyway. So, you can have a nursing degree from Duke but you can't practice nursing unless you've passed the NCLEX.

The mere attainment of a bachelors degree in business or communications or marketing or history doesn't confer any inherent qualifications.

Employers check bona fides and often when applying, they'll ask "Do you have X level of education from an accredited institution.

If you want a teaching license, for example, this is a requirement, but often its a requirement for any old job that requires a BA or Masters degree.
Not exactly correct with accounting. Tons of practicing accountants have never taken a licensing exam.
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Old 05-22-2023, 07:17 AM
 
87 posts, read 66,129 times
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Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
I'm not sure what he's telling you is true. It seems that India has religion major/degrees and programs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chri...leges_in_India


The BA/MA/PhD degrees are accredited by the UCG but not theological degrees, which they consider "not notifiable". [There is a HUGE difference between theology and religious studies]

See the Wiki page reference: The BDiv, MTh, DDiv, MDiv, ThD degrees are all unaccredited by the UCG.
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