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Old 09-04-2023, 09:32 AM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
44,741 posts, read 59,642,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I will let George Mason answer that question.

https://www.gmu.edu/news/2021-10/inc...on-expert-says
I had a student several years ago (well, almost twenty when I think about it) who was accepted without conditions into the Engineering program at University of Maryland whose highest Math was Alg II (got a C in it) while her Co-valedictorian classmate with an A in AP Calc AB and a 3 on the AP exam was accepted into Engineering as conditional acceptance.

The difference? The first girl checked off three boxes on the underrepresented group sheet while the second only checked off one.
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Old 09-04-2023, 11:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I will let George Mason answer that question.

https://www.gmu.edu/news/2021-10/inc...on-expert-says
It sounds like nothing more than a numbers game.

They create these test optional standards and then when the students are accepted, they make them take placement tests anyway.

And the point of this is.....what, exactly?
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Old 09-04-2023, 11:53 AM
 
77,493 posts, read 59,579,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by springfieldva View Post
It sounds like nothing more than a numbers game.

They create these test optional standards and then when the students are accepted, they make them take placement tests anyway.

And the point of this is.....what, exactly?
Diversity by offering a shortcut at the end for unprepared students by blaming the ACT and SAT as unfair.

This in turn creates much higher drop rates from STEM programs for those groups.

My complaint isn't that they're trying to address an imbalance but rather they are going about it in a way that is imo detrimental to the student. I have worked with tons of talented people from all corners of diversity, people are capable but you cannot fix things with excuses and shortcuts.
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Old 09-04-2023, 01:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Diversity by offering a shortcut at the end for unprepared students by blaming the ACT and SAT as unfair.

This in turn creates much higher drop rates from STEM programs for those groups.

My complaint isn't that they're trying to address an imbalance but rather they are going about it in a way that is imo detrimental to the student. I have worked with tons of talented people from all corners of diversity, people are capable but you cannot fix things with excuses and shortcuts.
I agree. I hate that the kids are finding out that they lack the foundation to succeed in these programs only after they have committed to the school and been admitted.
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Old 09-04-2023, 01:24 PM
 
12,526 posts, read 8,744,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
I had a student several years ago (well, almost twenty when I think about it) who was accepted without conditions into the Engineering program at University of Maryland whose highest Math was Alg II (got a C in it) while her Co-valedictorian classmate with an A in AP Calc AB and a 3 on the AP exam was accepted into Engineering as conditional acceptance.

The difference? The first girl checked off three boxes on the underrepresented group sheet while the second only checked off one.
This supports why different difficulty of classes should have different possible GPA points for them. How do you get co-valedictorians when one doesn't go beyond Algebra II and the other gets through AP calc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by springfieldva View Post
It sounds like nothing more than a numbers game.

They create these test optional standards and then when the students are accepted, they make them take placement tests anyway.

And the point of this is.....what, exactly?
The alternative would be to place them directly into college calc only to flunk them out later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by springfieldva View Post
I agree. I hate that the kids are finding out that they lack the foundation to succeed in these programs only after they have committed to the school and been admitted.
But the key question is "why are they not finding out until they run into trouble in college?" Why are the high schools sending them along and feeding them "you are successful" when they obviously aren't? While there is some responsibility on the student, at some point the education system has to tell them the truth. How is a kid supposed to know that they can't do math if their entire time in school they've been passed along and told they are doing ok? Someone is setting these kids up for failure.
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Old 09-04-2023, 01:36 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
44,741 posts, read 59,642,981 times
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Originally Posted by tnff View Post
This supports why different difficulty of classes should have different possible GPA points for them. How do you get co-valedictorians when one doesn't go beyond Algebra II and the other gets through AP calc?..................
The two girls I mentioned weren't the Co-Valedictorians, only the second one with Calc. She had a GPA way over 4.0 with her weighted AP grades. Actually she had no grade less than an A throughout her schooling until she got to college. I can't remember now what class it was she got a B or C in (and that was just on a test) but she called me at 2AM in a panic.

The one that only got through Alg II had, if I recall correctly, had a 3.0-3.2 with no APs.
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Old 09-04-2023, 01:42 PM
 
12,526 posts, read 8,744,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
The two girls I mentioned weren't the Co-Valedictorians, only the second one with Calc. She had a GPA way over 4.0 with her weighted AP grades. Actually she had no grade less than an A throughout her schooling until she got to college. I can't remember now what class it was she got a B or C in (and that was just on a test) but she called me at 2AM in a panic.

The one that only got through Alg II had, if I recall correctly, had a 3.0-3.2 with no APs.
Thank you for clarifying. I read the "her co-valedictorian" as they were co-valedictorians rather than the other girl was co-valedictorian with someone else. Sorry for misreading what you said.
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Old 09-04-2023, 01:52 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
41,262 posts, read 16,898,938 times
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If you remove skin color and economic status and only rely on grades, then the right people get admitted...the smart ones.
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Old 09-04-2023, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,548 posts, read 2,184,896 times
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As in many facets of life, attrition weeds out those who shouldn't be there in the first place.
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Old 09-04-2023, 02:46 PM
 
16,812 posts, read 16,053,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
This supports why different difficulty of classes should have different possible GPA points for them. How do you get co-valedictorians when one doesn't go beyond Algebra II and the other gets through AP calc?



The alternative would be to place them directly into college calc only to flunk them out later.



But the key question is "why are they not finding out until they run into trouble in college?" Why are the high schools sending them along and feeding them "you are successful" when they obviously aren't? While there is some responsibility on the student, at some point the education system has to tell them the truth. How is a kid supposed to know that they can't do math if their entire time in school they've been passed along and told they are doing ok? Someone is setting these kids up for failure.
I have to say that Fairfax County public schools did a great job teaching my first son Algebra 1 in middle school. They have a solid curriculum...or at least they did when my kids were in school there.

GMU is in Fairfax County and has always been a bit of a commuter school. It's a diverse area in general and it has been for a long time.

I'm just really surprised that GMU is encountering these kinds of issues with their incoming Freshman.
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