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Old 10-12-2023, 01:23 PM
 
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Yes, there's a very clear correlation between low overall SAT scores and high participation rates. Filters are important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
I would expect the privates to be trending higher, They must improve to retain and attact new staff and students.

Home school stats would be good to see as well. ($ spent on individual education vs ACT / SAT outcome)

BTW: Marketplace (NPR) is planning to do a series on 'The Value of College' next week.
Freakonomics has some interesting programs on similar topics, Last week was one on Family / Social effects on the success of students.
If anyone can find any hard data better than me, I’d love to see it. Here’s what I got:

Trying to get aggregated SAT or ACT score data over time out of private schools is like pulling teeth. Only because the internet is forever, and through intense use of the wayback machine, was I able to yank the teeth out of the ACCS (A big conglomoration of private christian schools following a “Classical” education model), and then only for a 3- year period from 2017-2019. During that time, their average SAT scores declined from 1252 to 1246. Public school SAT scores showed a smaller % decline from 1060 to 1059. 0.5% decline for private vs 0.1% decline for public. During this time, public SAT scores peaked in 2018 and started their decline, so the 3 year stretch looks almost flat.

They do publish one data point prior to 2016, but SAT score measurement changed that year, and scores peaked in 2018, so it’s pretty useless.

It looks like the trends in Private schools are basically following those in public schools and they are not immune (or an antidote for parents) to declining scores. None of them publish their SAT or ACT scores because they are not required to--unlike public schools. Instead, they write reams of paper on how much better their students perform. It’s funny (or disturbing, depending on how you look at it) to see them dance around publishing actual scores so they can obfuscate the data which would show a year-over-year decline.

I want to put my kids in private school IFF they are immune to the current slide in educational standards. That they go to such great lengths to hide performance data makes me believe they are suffering the same declines. They don’t want anyone pointing that out, so they hide the data.

I am evaluating local private schools this fall because I’m unhappy with public schools. I don’t expect to be satisfied, because I want to see their year-over-year score data. I know that I can segregate my kids into a higher-achievement-through-socioeconomic-status group by joining parents who care enough about education or can afford to plunk down tens of thousands in tuition. I am NOT convinced that there’s a good ROI there, without hard data. My kids are the top of their class in a “good” public school. Public schools in our area have an “honors class” type filter where the top 10% are almost completely segregated from the general population and put on an accelerated track. I need to be convinced by the privates that the “dummy filter” of the honors program isn’t just as good the “money filter” of the private schools.

As another poster mentioned, taking the kids to a country that culturally puts more emphasis on education is probably the only way we will ever be satisfied. Our elementary schoolers are going to do an exchange program in such a place during the next semester. I’m afraid that it is only going to further deepen our disgust with American education, since we’re not in a place where we can just f[ly] off to Asia for 10 years.

Homeschooling is such a morass that it’s impossible to pull any data out of it. I found this, which is certainly not encouraging:
Quote:
Researchers found that homeschool graduates had lower SAT scores, completed fewer years of higher education, and were less likely to receive a college degree. In other words, the findings of the only study of homeschool graduates to use a random sample reinforce concerns raised by low homeschool SAT-taking.
https://responsiblehomeschooling.org...ol-sat-taking/
I think homeschoolers could be very successful if one or both parents can not work and spend the entirety of their time creating, prepping, delivering, and evaluating a curriculum that is accelerated beyond what’s typical in public school. However, that is a herculean task that requires the homeschoolers to be both independently wealthy (so they can educate instead of working/housekeeping/etc) and extremely motivated to educate their children. That’s a rare combination.
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Old 10-12-2023, 02:02 PM
 
19,390 posts, read 17,598,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Related to what I bolded, there are now many school systems that mandate that every student enrolled take the ACT/SAT/PSAT and have those tests administered during a regular school day instead of a Saturday.

You haven't lived until you get to administer the PSAT to a group of self-contained SPED students.

What do you think their scores, which are rolled into the aggregate, were like?

While the Educocrats (and that includes the College Board which is a strong advocate of universal SAT/PSAT/AP testing) will deny it, opening up the testing pool to everyone will inevitably lead to lower scores. I had this argument thirty years ago with one of our migrant Superintendents. He, of course, denied that would happen, something about "raising the bar". I told him it was magical thinking. But what did I know? He spent two whole years in the classroom teaching before going into Administration.
I thought SPED students took ACT and SAT tests with accommodations per disability and some actually took entirely different tests?
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Old 10-12-2023, 02:05 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
44,770 posts, read 59,668,390 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I thought SPED students took ACT and SAT tests with accommodations per disability and some actually took entirely different tests?
It depends. If the Testing Coordinator bothers to set up accommodations that might happen, it's a multi-month process for AP, but in my experience it didn't happen.

What accommodation would you have for the kid who can't spell Bob if you spot them the B's?
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Old 10-12-2023, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
49,938 posts, read 23,671,912 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
It depends. If the Testing Coordinator bothers to set up accommodations that might happen, it's a multi-month process for AP, but in my experience it didn't happen.

What accommodation would you have for the kid who can't spell Bob if you spot them the B's?
I never found testing accommodations to make the situation equal.
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Old 10-12-2023, 02:14 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
44,770 posts, read 59,668,390 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I never found testing accommodations to make the situation equal.
They don't usually, When I talk SPED/IEP here I'm not talking the kid who has dyslexia but the ED and CD kids who are cognitively years behind and will never, ever catch up. Yeah, they had to take the PSAT.
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Old 10-12-2023, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
49,938 posts, read 23,671,912 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
They don't usually, When I talk SPED/IEP here I'm not talking the kid who has dyslexia but the ED and CD kids who are cognitively years behind and will never, ever catch up. Yeah, they had to take the PSAT.
It was similar with our state with the old NCLB state tests.

That's not to say we didn't get important data from it.

For example, one year I noted that our SPED students dropped down from where they had been in elementary school and where they ended up in high school. We had to work on why they dropped in our school.
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Old 10-12-2023, 02:28 PM
 
7,089 posts, read 3,393,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wac_432 View Post
Can anyone find a private vs. public school trend for SAT and ACT scores that covers recent years? I'd like to see if the decline is across the board, or mostly in public schools.
Regarding private schools, it seems to me it might be useful to segment the private schools by function. Some private schools are academic in nature; others focus on religious beliefs; some may focus on behavioral problems, etc.
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Old 10-12-2023, 03:11 PM
 
12,538 posts, read 8,753,941 times
Reputation: 34304
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Related to what I bolded, there are now many school systems that mandate that every student enrolled take the ACT/SAT/PSAT and have those tests administered during a regular school day instead of a Saturday.

You haven't lived until you get to administer the PSAT to a group of self-contained SPED students.

What do you think their scores, which are rolled into the aggregate, were like?

While the Educocrats (and that includes the College Board which is a strong advocate of universal SAT/PSAT/AP testing) will deny it, opening up the testing pool to everyone will inevitably lead to lower scores. I had this argument thirty years ago with one of our migrant Superintendents. He, of course, denied that would happen, something about "raising the bar". I told him it was magical thinking. But what did I know? He spent two whole years in the classroom teaching before going into Administration.
I agree with you. It's a simply acknowledgement of the fact that, magical thinking aside, not everyone should go to college. The idea that a high school education should enable each student to go to college if they want is the magical thinking that harms all students. We seem to be in general agreement.
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Old 10-12-2023, 03:19 PM
 
19,390 posts, read 17,598,590 times
Reputation: 16955
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
It depends. If the Testing Coordinator bothers to set up accommodations that might happen, it's a multi-month process for AP, but in my experience it didn't happen.

What accommodation would you have for the kid who can't spell Bob if you spot them the B's?
I don't know.
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Old 10-12-2023, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
49,938 posts, read 23,671,912 times
Reputation: 32424
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I agree with you. It's a simply acknowledgement of the fact that, magical thinking aside, not everyone should go to college. The idea that a high school education should enable each student to go to college if they want is the magical thinking that harms all students. We seem to be in general agreement.
I am appalled that you don't think a student should be able to go to college if that is what they aspire to do. That reminds me too much of authoritarianism thinking.
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