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Old 11-06-2023, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
49,903 posts, read 23,645,912 times
Reputation: 32401

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
SO we're psychologists? or teachers? (or do neither very well!!)

'Building Confidence' is not lying to a student and their parents, then passing them on to the next grade level.
So you get to play psychologist, but teachers don't?
And what, EXACTLY, is your background in psychology?

And by the way, it isn't really necessary for you to toss in an insult in every post.
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Old 11-07-2023, 06:44 AM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
44,741 posts, read 59,631,382 times
Reputation: 60264
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtab4994 View Post
That sounds like the kid has a serious problem. What if they drop him back a grade starting in January? Then he can "succeed backwards" right now rather than "fail forward" later. Maybe he'll be able to complete last year's work? Sure, he may have blown it off last year, too, but at least it's not as challenging and maybe he can build some confidence. (Yes, I am saying he/him because most school failures I have known are boys.)
High school doesn't work the way elementary does.

Say a kid is failing Bio, what would be accomplished throwing him back to Earth Science, as an example?

You might make a case for a drop to AlgI from AlgII, but again, there are a lot of variables.

For the most part it isn't lack of ability (a caveat would be years behind in Reading and not knowing Arithmetic) or cognitive deficits (in that case the kid should have been identified as SPED) but attitude and behavior.

Almost without exception normal intelligence kids who fail classes do so because of the refusal to do the work and constantly being disruptive (full disclosure, I failed AlgII because I had absolutely no clue what was going on in it, a result of not understanding AlgI. Some of that was the fact that every single Math teacher I had was from the "Do an Example on the Board and Assign the Even Problems" school of Math teaching. None would ever take the time to explain the "why" of a problem. That happens in every subject by the way).
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Old 11-07-2023, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Shawnee-on-Delaware, PA
7,895 posts, read 7,230,393 times
Reputation: 15989
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Oh yes, dropping kids back a year to be with younger kids...right...that's bound to build his confidence.
Explain how that's different from being held back in September?
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Old 11-07-2023, 09:23 AM
 
12,522 posts, read 8,740,507 times
Reputation: 34281
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
High school doesn't work the way elementary does.

Say a kid is failing Bio, what would be accomplished throwing him back to Earth Science, as an example?

You might make a case for a drop to AlgI from AlgII, but again, there are a lot of variables.

For the most part it isn't lack of ability (a caveat would be years behind in Reading and not knowing Arithmetic) or cognitive deficits (in that case the kid should have been identified as SPED) but attitude and behavior.

Almost without exception normal intelligence kids who fail classes do so because of the refusal to do the work and constantly being disruptive (full disclosure, I failed AlgII because I had absolutely no clue what was going on in it, a result of not understanding AlgI. Some of that was the fact that every single Math teacher I had was from the "Do an Example on the Board and Assign the Even Problems" school of Math teaching. None would ever take the time to explain the "why" of a problem. That happens in every subject by the way).
I agree with you that a kid who has academic problems needs to be in the appropriate group, but I believe even among the normal range of ability there are still differences that become apparent by middle/high school and need to be different ability groups or course areas to better match those groups.

I also believe your example of the math teacher is why by the middle/high school level, subject matter expertise is important. They don't explain the "why" of a problem because they don't know the "why." They just know to follow the rules of "if problem A then do B; if problem C then do D." Not just in math but other subjects as well.

Years ago, not long after college, I had a chance to sit in on a presentation by a retired professor of languages on why we speak and write the way we do. The subject of rules like "always and never" came up. His answer was enlightening in that there really were no such rules in language; rather that was a teaching tool they used because it was easier to training aspiring teachers a set of "always and never" rules with some specific exceptions than it was to teach them what was really going on in the language itself.
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Old 11-07-2023, 10:28 AM
 
18,446 posts, read 10,381,892 times
Reputation: 8464
Not a Teacher or an expert, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express either. I'm a former student from the 60's and 70's who many considered an "under achiever", a student who didn't "commit himself to his studies, "a student who needed to buckle down" . My Senor Year in high school my GPA 2.5 out of a graduating class of 266 students I was 249th(no BS). The Counselor recommend to my Mother I go to trade school or enlist( draft had stop)

What none of those Teachers, Counselors or experts knew was I had dyslexia. My parents listen to those experts because , well that's what parents did. I ended up at a Jr. College with a degree .

I read this post's and it seems like everyone is an expert but I see very little talk about the actual student and why they are the way they are. There is no one way of fixing a students problems and the student in Baltimore have different problems then the ones in St. Mary's or Allegany Counties. I also believe punishing a student because they can't under stand something or digest it is the wrong way to go. Many here are talking High school or College students , these kids need to be caught in the lower grammar school grades . JMO.
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Old 11-07-2023, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
49,903 posts, read 23,645,912 times
Reputation: 32401
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1.. View Post
Not a Teacher or an expert, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express either. I'm a former student from the 60's and 70's who many considered an "under achiever", a student who didn't "commit himself to his studies, "a student who needed to buckle down" . My Senor Year in high school my GPA 2.5 out of a graduating class of 266 students I was 249th(no BS). The Counselor recommend to my Mother I go to trade school or enlist( draft had stop)

What none of those Teachers, Counselors or experts knew was I had dyslexia. My parents listen to those experts because , well that's what parents did. I ended up at a Jr. College with a degree .

I read this post's and it seems like everyone is an expert but I see very little talk about the actual student and why they are the way they are. There is no one way of fixing a students problems and the student in Baltimore have different problems then the ones in St. Mary's or Allegany Counties. I also believe punishing a student because they can't under stand something or digest it is the wrong way to go. Many here are talking High school or College students , these kids need to be caught in the lower grammar school grades . JMO.
You've hit the nail on the head with the bolded. There are quite a few posters here who toss out simple solutions, often one-liners, as if they have an actual proposal for change.
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Old 11-07-2023, 11:06 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,498 posts, read 57,267,209 times
Reputation: 45766
The solution to meet the defined objectives of the operation, are very simple.

The solutions for the complexity of each individual student (or employee in a 50,000 person factory) may not be simple.

One must be trained and intelligent enough to deliver on your objective, in spite of your many distractions. Direct your distractions to the appropriate resources to avail the correct solution to meet their needs.

It's not only simple, it's expected. (Required of professionals and deserved by their charges, whether students, employees, patients, clients, the incarcerated, or the incompetent).

Thx G1.. for exposing this. And explaining your experience.- congrats on overcoming. Our best to your continued progress and educating others who are lost in their forest.
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Old 11-07-2023, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
49,903 posts, read 23,645,912 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtab4994 View Post
Explain how that's different from being held back in September?
To incomplete a post to develop a response.
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Old 11-07-2023, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
49,903 posts, read 23,645,912 times
Reputation: 32401
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
The solution to meet the defined objectives of the operation, are very simple.

The solutions for the complexity of each individual student (or employee in a 50,000 person factory) may not be simple.

One must be trained and intelligent enough to deliver on your objective, in spite of your many distractions. Direct your distractions to the appropriate resources to avail the correct solution to meet their needs.

It's not only simple, it's expected. (Required of professionals and deserved by their charges, whether students, employees, patients, clients, the incarcerated, or the incompetent).

Thx G1.. for exposing this. And explaining your experience.- congrats on overcoming. Our best to your continued progress and educating others who are lost in their forest.
Nicely written. No practical substance.
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Old 11-07-2023, 02:25 PM
 
19,390 posts, read 17,580,496 times
Reputation: 16947
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Sorry, but whether you agree with the policy or not, Clara is correct, that was thinking that led to it.
1. So your posit is the - nothing below 50% - bit was developed because legions of otherwise solid performers blew a single test?


I don't buy that even for a second.


2. I never agree with decreasing standards.
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